• Blue_Morpho@lemmy.world
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      22 hours ago

      From your link:

      “At the time of the discussion, Farmer was medically stable, with some vaginal bleeding that was not heavy. “Therefore contrary to the most appropriate management based (sic) my medical opinion, due to the legal language of MO law, we are unable to offer induction of labor at this time,” the report quotes the specialist as saying.”

      So yes, the law did prevent an abortion and endangered her life.

      She is suing because she expected an exception for herself.

      • the_toast_is_gone@lemmy.world
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        22 hours ago

        According to the HHS secretary:

        “While many state laws have recently changed, it’s important to know that the federal EMTALA requirements have not changed, and continue to require that healthcare professionals offer treatment, including abortion care, that the provider reasonably determines is necessary to stabilize the patient’s emergency medical condition,” Becerra wrote.

        “The hospital’s noncompliance creates a reasonable expectation that an adverse outcome resulting in serious injury, harm, impairment, or death will occur to current or future individuals in similar situations if not immediately corrected,” the report states.

        “Although her doctors advised her that her condition could rapidly deteriorate, they also advised that they could not provide her with the care that would prevent infection, hemorrhage, and potentially death because, they said, the hospital policies prohibited treatment that could be considered an abortion,” Becerra wrote. “This was a violation of the EMTALA protections that were designed to protect patients like her.”

        Farmer suffered what doctors call preterm premature rupture of membranes — her water broke, followed by vaginal bleeding, abdominal pressure and cramping, the Springfield News-Leader reported in an October article. Doctors told her she would be unlikely to carry the child to term, and doing so increased her chances of infection or other severe outcome.

        Medical errors are a serious issue in the US, harming over 400,000 people and killing over 200,000 in a single year. This is a clear-cut example of a harmful medical error.

        • shawn1122@lemm.ee
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          3 hours ago

          This is not a medical error. EMTALA is not a protective law for healthcare facilities or professionals. The state can still prosecute based on their own laws, and in Texas, for example, performing an abortion can come with a lifetime sentence.

          From the medical provider and hospitals standpoint, you are now stuck between a rock and a hard place. Perform an abortion and face criminal charges from the state or refrain and face civil charges from the fed.

          If you had the choice to face a criminal charge (prison sentence) or a civil charge (fine), which would you pick?

          Texas law imposes severe criminal penalties for performing abortions. Medical professionals who perform abortions face first-degree felony charges punishable by five years to life in prison if the procedure results in fetal death. Attempting or inducing an abortion is a second-degree felony, carrying two to 20 years imprisonment. Additionally, providers face minimum civil penalties of $100,000 per violation and mandatory revocation of their medical license.
          
          • the_toast_is_gone@lemmy.world
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            3 hours ago

            If a state tried to convinct someone of providing an emergency abortion, the federal government’s law would supercede the law prohibiting emergency abortions (which doesn’t exist). Your statement about legal threats would only make sense if a significant number of doctors had been convicted, or even just charged, of an unlawful abortion despite claiming it was an emergency. So far, nobody has.

            As it stands, there is no risk of criminal charges. Your choice doesn’t exist.

            • shawn1122@lemm.ee
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              2 hours ago

              Which federal law are you referring to? EMTALA does not supersede state law, nor does it prevent the state from pursuing criminal charges for abortion.

              It’s unrealistic to expect a significant number of doctors to throw away their livelihoods and go to prison to prove a legal threat. Doctors are being advised by risk management divisions of the hospital to not even consider abortions in these cases (in certain states) because it means saying goodbye to your practice, your savings, and your family.

              Texas successfully challenged EMTALA's application to abortion cases through a lawsuit in 2022. The 5th Circuit Court ruled that EMTALA does not mandate abortion care or override state law. Texas became the only state exempt from federal emergency care requirements for pregnant patients. Under Texas law, abortion is only permitted for "risk of death" rather than EMTALA's broader "serious jeopardy" to health standard
              

              Tuesday’s ruling, authored by Judge Kurt D. Engelhardt, said the court “decline[d] to expand the scope of EMTALA.”

              “We agree with the district court that EMTALA does not provide an unqualified right for the pregnant mother to abort her child,” Englehardt wrote. “EMTALA does not mandate medical treatments, let alone abortion care, nor does it preempt Texas law.”

              https://www.texastribune.org/2024/01/02/texas-abortion-fifth-circuit/

              • the_toast_is_gone@lemmy.world
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                2 hours ago

                EMTALA supercedes state law because it is federal law. This is standard legal doctrine.

                Nobody has been prosecuted for performing an abortion since the Dobbs decision. Hundreds of abortions have happened in Missouri since Dobbs, and nobody has been prosecuted there.

                There’s literally less legal danger in performing an emergency abortion/premature delivery in a ban state than in shoplifting $500 of merchandise in San Francisco. The doctors who have done the post-Dobbs abortions have clearly done the calculus and found this to be the case. Nobody has been or needs to be “sacrificed.”

                • shawn1122@lemm.ee
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                  8 minutes ago

                  EMTALA supercedes state law because it is federal law. This is standard legal doctrine.

                  Texas disagrees. Please see above source.

                  Nobody has been prosecuted for performing an abortion since the Dobbs decision. Hundreds of abortions have happened in Missouri since Dobbs, and nobody has been prosecuted there.

                  No one’s going to risk their livelihood on precedent. While legal precedent is important, it doesn’t provide meaningful reassurance when the stakes are this high.

                  Do you have any specific examples of such cases?

        • Dkarma@lemmy.world
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          21 hours ago

          Hospitals lawyers “we’d rather be maybe sued by the state than definitely sued and shut down”

          Is how this plays out in real life.

          • shawn1122@lemm.ee
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            3 hours ago

            It wasn’t just getting sued. Your healthcare provider would face a class B felony and likely revocation of their license prior to amendment 3 passing.

            Missouri faces the nation's fourth-largest shortage of healthcare professionals, with 111 of 114 counties designated as health professional shortage areas. The state projects a deficit of 3,102 doctors by 2030, including 687 primary care providers. Hospital staffing remains strained, with a 17.4% vacancy rate for registered nurses, representing 6,982 unfilled positions. The crisis is compounded by Missouri exporting one-third of medical students to out-of-state residency programs.
            

            It’s not good business for a portion of your workforce to end up in prison when you’re already in a shortage area.

            • troglodytis@lemmy.world
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              15 hours ago

              It would be cool if she won, but I don’t think she will. Super easy to argue that her circumstances had not yet reached the level of “medical emergency”.

              So fucked are we

              • the_toast_is_gone@lemmy.world
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                14 hours ago

                It would also be super easy to argue the hospital is at fault given they were cited by the HHS secretary for refusing to provide care required by federal law.

              • Riskable@programming.dev
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                21 hours ago

                It still matters because the Federal courts can set precedent that the Federal law (obviously, that’s how Federalism works) overrides state abortion bans.

                • the_toast_is_gone@lemmy.world
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                  21 hours ago

                  And as the article I posted explains, those hospitals broke federal law when they refused to provide the abortion.

                  • Blue_Morpho@lemmy.world
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                    21 hours ago

                    As your own link said, they didn’t break the law.

                    She was stable. The law says the hospital had to wait until she was in danger.

                    A lawsuit from a pro lifer who is suing because she wanted an abortion isn’t proof they broke the law.

        • troglodytis@lemmy.world
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          15 hours ago

          It could be very easily argued that “could deteriorate rapidly” is not a medical emergency, and therefore does not meet the requirements of the MO or federal laws to allow for inducing labor or abortion.

          Given the overzealous rhetoric from state officials, I understand the hospital and doctor’s reluctance to provide care. We are fucking ourselves.

        • WalrusDragonOnABike [they/them]@lemmy.today
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          21 hours ago

          Doctors told her she would be unlikely to carry the child to term, and doing so increased her chances of infection or other severe outcome.

          When the law is a witch hunt not based on science, doctors cannot operate based on their best judgement based on science. Real issues of “unlikely” and “increased her chances” aren’t the same things as immediate medical emergency: they prevent an immediate medical emergency. Any law restricting abortions to when they are “medically necessary” will always lead to cases where its denied until its immediately medically necessary, at which point it may be too late. This is a clear-cut example of what such laws will always do and doctors being forced to tiptoe around the feelings of fanatics instead of being able to practice medicine.

          • the_toast_is_gone@lemmy.world
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            21 hours ago

            How many doctors have been criminally charged for providing an abortion in states that have banned them? Emergency permissions have been in place for as long as abortion restrictions have. If they wanted to remove those restrictions, they would have had every reason to do so when the Dobbs decision came through. Although based on the HHS secretary’s words, such a thing would be a violation of federal law.

              • the_toast_is_gone@lemmy.world
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                16 hours ago

                Hundreds of thousands of people die every year because of medical errors for any number of reasons. The law doesn’t need to be involved for that to happen. Blaming a law which explicitly allows abortions for emergencies, when doctors are already known to make enough fatal errors for hundreds of thousands of people to die every year, makes no sense. This isn’t exacerbating an existing issue, their interest in dodging liability is.

        • tburkhol@lemmy.world
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          21 hours ago

          federal EMTALA requirements have not changed, and continue to require that healthcare professionals offer treatment, including abortion care, that the provider reasonably determines is necessary to stabilize the patient’s emergency medical condition

          At the time of the discussion, Farmer was medically stable, with some vaginal bleeding that was not heavy.

          Sounds like she was not experiencing an emergency medical condition that would have required stabilization. It could have become more severe, which explains why conventional care would have been abortion, but it was not, at the moment of presentation.

          Sure would be nice if they would just let the physicians practice medicine, without having to second guess which law takes precedence.

          • the_toast_is_gone@lemmy.world
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            20 hours ago

            There’s no need to second guess. The law is explicit. Furthermore, she had been seen by several hospitals and they all denied her treatment. The situation was exacerbated by their negligence.

              • the_toast_is_gone@lemmy.world
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                20 hours ago

                Your opinion matters as much as mine, the HHS secretary said they’re in the wrong, and it would have been 100% legal by the letter of the law.

                • shawn1122@lemm.ee
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                  3 hours ago

                  That’s a misinterpretation of EMTALA and the words of the HHS secretary.

                  They didn’t say that they would protect providers who perform abortions. They said they would seek civil punishment for those that do not. That’s very different from providing protection.

                  See my comment above for more details.

                  • the_toast_is_gone@lemmy.world
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                    There were multiple hospitals involved and cited for failing to treat her. One excerpt from one medical report doesn’t refute that. The HHS secretary explicitly said that, under the federal EMTALA, hospitals are required to provide emergency care, which they did not.

    • superkret@feddit.org
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      22 hours ago

      Yeah but I can’t blame the doctors for refusing, when in doubt a right wing jury without medical training will decide if it was an emergency or not, and your freedom depends on their verdict.

      • Riskable@programming.dev
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        21 hours ago

        Doctors swear an oath, “first, do no harm.” So yes we can blame the doctors!

        Doctors are supposed to behave ethically regardless of the law. This is not a new thing! Doctors providing appropriate treatment despite the law is a very fucking long tradition in medicine.

      • the_toast_is_gone@lemmy.world
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        21 hours ago

        It’s either provide the treatment, or people become gravely injured or die. She quite nearly died as a result of the mistreatment. We can’t predict juries, but I haven’t seen any cases of doctors being arrested and convicted of providing an abortion.

        • WraithGear@lemmy.world
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          21 hours ago

          But that is the explicit threat. That is what law makers are saying they are setting as precedent.

            • WraithGear@lemmy.world
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              21 hours ago

              There’s no guarantee they will be charged is not the same as there is a guarantee they will not be charged. And that is the issue, the hospitals were directly threatened by republicans with jail time, and contradictory statements, as proof when she reached out to get clarification from the governor even he noped out when it mattered. Also remember that the doctors do not run the hospital, administrators and bean counters do.

              • the_toast_is_gone@lemmy.world
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                20 hours ago

                Nobody has been charged so far. If they wanted to make an example of someone, it would have made far more sense to do it around when the law was passed. There’s no Machiavellian scheme trying to trap doctors in unwinnable situations, this was an obvious case of medical error. Hundreds of thousands of other similar errors severe enough to cause harm or death happen every year.

                • WraithGear@lemmy.world
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                  20 hours ago

                  There only has to be the threat. Because as long as hospitals are afraid to perform abortions the republicans win… well “win” in this case. We are just people arguing could have should have, when the hospital doctors recommended it, but the hospital with their lawyers and the fact they have been doing this as a profession was not as convinced as you seem to be.

                  Besides, is your argument the hospital was out to kill this lady specifically?

                  • the_toast_is_gone@lemmy.world
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                    20 hours ago

                    Any threat is entirely imagined. Nobody has been prosecuted for this. The law states it is legal. My argument is that either the hospital misunderstood the law in an honest error or they were more interested in covering their own butts than treating a patient in obvious need - in either case, they were wrong and should be held responsible.

    • blackbelt352@lemmy.world
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      22 hours ago

      What defines a medical emergency in rhe eyes of the law? How many hospitals are going to perform an abortion they deem a medical emergency only to be potentially sued by an AG who disagrees that it was medically necessary?

        • lightnsfw@reddthat.com
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          13 hours ago

          It’s not even close to the same. Abortion laws shouldn’t exist in the first place. The decision should be left up to the woman alone. All this law is doing is making providers worry about the consequences of performing one. A law against theft deters theft… There is a purpose to that.

            • lightnsfw@reddthat.com
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              4 hours ago

              It’s not a baby. It’s a blob. It has no sentience and the mother doesn’t want it in her body. It’s basically a parasite.

              • the_toast_is_gone@lemmy.world
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                3 hours ago

                A fetus/baby is a human being. It is an organism composed of human cells, and the mother’s body is made to accommodate it. The only difference between an adult and a fetus is the stage of development. If a fetus is a “blob,” so are born babies, children, and adults.

                A parasite is a different species which the host’s body isn’t meant to accommodate. Calling a fetus a parasite is insane.

                Oh, and tumors aren’t organisms, so fetuses don’t fit that definition either.

                • lightnsfw@reddthat.com
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                  21 minutes ago

                  If a fetus is a “blob,” so are born babies, children, and adults.

                  No, those are fully formed individuals that can survive on their own if separated from the mother. The fetus is surviving off it’s mother’s body. Stealing her nutrients. The only thing separating it from fitting the definition of a parasite is the “different species” caveat.

                  • the_toast_is_gone@lemmy.world
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                    16 minutes ago

                    What’s the difference between a “blob” and a “fully formed individual” and why is killing one acceptable while killing the other isn’t? You also missed the “mother’s body is made to accommodate the child” thing, too. That’s what the uterus is for. If there was no such thing as a uterus and the fetus was a different species, then it would be a parasite. As it is though, a fetus is no more a parasite than someone living at home with their parents.

        • Blue_Morpho@lemmy.world
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          15 hours ago

          “At risk” isn’t an emergency. All pregnancies have risk to the life of the mother.

          An abortion was proactive healthcare. The law prevents it.

          • the_toast_is_gone@lemmy.world
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            15 hours ago

            If your water breaks at 16 weeks, that is an emergency. According to the lawsuit, they knew this quite well:

            By the time Ms. Farmer arrived at TUKH, she had been evaluated and it was clear that she had lost all her amniotic fluid, and her pregnancy—which she had dreamed of and longed for—was no longer viable. And unless she received immediate medical intervention to end the pregnancy in a medical setting, she was at risk of severe blood loss, sepsis, loss of fertility, and death.

            It could not be a more obvious example of a medical error. When the law says this is allowed, the law is not at fault.

            • Blue_Morpho@lemmy.world
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              3 hours ago

              You again quoted “at risk”. High blood pressure is “at risk”. It’s not an immediate life threatening condition requiring surgery.

              She wanted an early abortion but didn’t get it because she voted against it.

              • the_toast_is_gone@lemmy.world
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                2 hours ago

                You skipped over the “if she does not receive immediate medical treatment” part. Normal pregnancies, outside of giving birth, do not require immediate medical treatment at all times to avoid the risks outlined above. When you’re giving birth, you then receive the medical treatment you need.