In a statement, the council rationalized the reduction by stating they wanted to reduce the content load on students in light of the Covid-19 pandemic. On June 1, India cut a slew of foundational topics from tenth grade textbooks, including the periodic table of elements, Darwin’s theory of evolution, the Pythagorean theorem, sources of energy, sustainable management of natural resources and contribution of agriculture to the national economy, among others. These changes effectively block a major swath of Indian students from exposure to evolution through textbooks, because tenth grade is the last year mandatory science classes are offered in Indian schools.
This is what the incoming Trump administration wants to do to the US.
Thats religion for you.
And just like that, 1 in every seven kids in the world got royally fucked.
Right?
Let’s see, Pythagorean theorem, is what, a couple thousand years old, and a single statement, right? And it’s the foundation of geometry and trig. Hell, I regularly say it in my head (a2+b2=c2) when trying to figure out spatial relationships, for dumb stuff no less (will this table fit on my patio with room to walk around it?).
It’s how you ensure anything you’re trying to make square is square. In framing (shed, house, deck, whatever) it’s used to ensure you setup your string in the proper orientation and don’t end up with a parallelogram.
And the Periodic table… The bloody basis of understanding chemical reactions and physics.
I guess if you’re not teaching the Periodic Table, there’d be no hope if understanding evolutionary theory, since it’s predicated on chemical behaviour.
Seriously… the Pythagorean Theorem is the single most important piece of practical math that can be easily taught to everyone.
And I just recently used it to measure the length of christmas lights I need for my roof, being 15 years out of school.
I’m a software engineer and I think one of my personal favorite random applications of Pythagoras/ trig was in my data visualization class back in scool. The assignment was to take a dataset of Soviet space launches with dogs and display it in an interactive approachable manner (ie less rigorous data science and more local science center), so I thought it would be fun to show rockets for each lauch and animate them rotating around the earth. Queue the trig to place each icon an appropriate distance (scaled to the launch height in my data), angle, and spacing from the earth.
I’ll admit it doesn’t come up all that often (in web development), but it’s nice to have that foundational knowledge to dredge up when I need it.
And yet I’ve never needed it once in my life.
Wish instead of learning bullshit math, I was taught how to repair stuff around my house that I use everyday or a million other useful life knowledge.
It’s so easy, and the more the you advocate for removal of “useless” knowledge the happier these people are to get rid of it. And no, they won’t replace it with the other stuff. Good workshops in schools ain’t cheap but the people willing to fuck over their whole country sure are.
Besides, I never took a shop class and I figured out how to do so many things including complicated car repair and fixing my dishwasher. Your problem isn’t that one thing is useful and the other isn’t, it’s what appears to be your inherent lack of curiosity. Being exposed to information is a good thing. Plenty of people much smarter than you are very thankful for it, no need to be bitter.
I think perhaps it’s lack of utility is more on account of the user than it is on the uses…
I use it all the time. If you need a right angle, 3-4-5 gives you one, and that’s Pythag, baybeee.
@PlasticLove This is a country that plans to send people into space in the next few years. Even basic trig in the unis matter.
You think the average citizen there is going to be sending people into space next year or something?
This isn’t something people need as general knowledge, schools are better used to prepare people for life.
Schools are better used to prepare people for your life, you mean.
The primary reason to teach math is to instil a form of logical reasoning. For instance, Phytagoras theorem is typically the first introduction to formal proofs. It’s literally the antidote to much of the stupidity we are currently observing in the world.
Having said that, your response is particularly idiotic because Phytagoras theorem plays a crucial role in home improvement projects. The fact that you have never applied it in real life is likely why you cannot repair stuff in your house.
More generally, I use the knowledge I have attained from physics and mathematics when I repair stuff at home. Maybe the reason you have trouble with these things is because you didn’t pay attention in school?
Wish instead of learning bullshit math, I was taught how to
repair stuff around my house that I use everydaydo things that frequently use the Pythagorean theoremFTFY
Honestly though, you don’t know what you don’t know, right? So nbd. But yeah, home improvement goes a lot smoother when you know your basic geometry math. So genuinely, I wish you were taught both.
The first uses of the hypotenuse theorem came centuries before Pythagoras, unknown exactly when it came to be. Pythagoras just happens to be credited to be the first to document it.
http://5010.mathed.usu.edu/Fall2021/BDzierzon/history.html
Edit: Noting that the http site doesn’t seem to load in Android WebView mode, fuck Google Chrome, it loads in Firefox though.
The Pythagorean theorem is no foundation of anything. It is just one solution to one problem that nobody else had solved before.
Archimedes has built the foundations that you are talking about.
Just for clarification, so less people use it wrong:
a² + b² = c² (a*a + b*b = c*c) is the Pythagorean Theorem.
a2 + b2 = c2 would be a+a + b+b = c+c.
when i’m away from my computer’s compose key, i put the exponent after a term to do it in plain text, and would write the latter as 2a+2b=2c.
That is taught in lower grades. The article is misleading. What is actually dropped is a specific advanced topic on the Pythagorean theorem.
Well it says mandatory, hopefully it still stays in most schools. Absolutely fucked tho
PEOPLE FALLING FOR THIS SHIT AGAIN IS INSANE !
They haven’t removed the Pythagorean theorem, it seems to be taught in lower grades. This is Pythagorean theorem for the similarity of triangles, which was dropped to remove burden during pandemic.
Periodic tables and evolution are moved to one or two grade higher. NOT DROPPED.
There you go. Now you have the facts. Enjoy the rest of your day 🫡
PEOPLE FALLING FOR THIS SHIT AGAIN IS INSANE
- Me, everyday, reading any news lately.
What the hell are you talking about!? It says in the article that these three subjects have been moved out of mandatory learning.
Meaning that most Indian students won’t understand the basic principles of evolution or the most simple understanding of the composition of elements.
Not considering either of these three to be essential mandatory learning is insane.
The syllabus includes of related topics way before in 6th or 7th grade. Some of them are often repeated (may be even intentionally). They learn about elements and their composition in 7th or 8th grade. After having all that, if student is inclined to it they learn more in 11th and 12th grades. Most of students follow up to 12th in India. If you are so concerned go check the textbooks yourself - https://ncert.nic.in/textbook.php
Although I don’t suppose most people won’t do that because why put the effort to understand things when you can spew dumb opinions around ?
The reason the topics were rationalised to improve remote learning and reduce burden on students during exams in a country where suicide rates among students due to exams and societal pressures is a real concern.
The way people have been reacting to this is as if students coming out of school are dumb fucks with no scientific knowledge. I bet the ones commenting here doesn’t even know half of what those students know.
Again, quoting the article, it says that many students (although maybe not most) will graduate without an understanding of these three subjects.
How can that be considered a positive, and what’s even more; acceptable?!
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Lol. Welcome to the internet. I don’t have anything more for you sorry. Stay safe.
What secondary sources do you propose we trust? Deutsche-Welle has a reputation for fact-checking and retractions. What’s your source that students who don’t major in math or biology will learn these?
10th grade is mandatory but 90% of students who studied till 10th WILL study 11th and 12th. In 10th grade they WILL learn pythagoras theorem periodic table and evolution, just not as deep into it as it used to.
It says in the post that 10th grade is the last mandatory grade, so this means many students will miss out on learning about evolution, no?
Correct. After 10th grade, you can choose a “stream” (course). You can choose between science, commerce, or humanities. What’s worse is that each stream has multiple branches, and biology is not included in all the branches. So if you were to choose computer science branch in the science stream, you will not take any biology classes.
So a vast majority of students would never learn about some very important scientific concepts if this was implemented, but I’m not sure if they reversed this decision or not.
Evolution is dropped from mandatory and is only taught to students who opt to learn biology, after high school.
These changes effectively block a major swath of Indian students from exposure to evolution through textbooks, because tenth grade is the last year mandatory science classes are offered in Indian schools.
I know nothing of India’s education system. Does this mean it’s in an optional class now or is this totally wrong?
Its totally correct, 10th is last mandatory grade, after that you can choose which subject you wanna study for 11th and 12th
that’s just your hypotenuse
Kids in india in a few years: the sum of the square of the cathedrals equals the hypothesis
as said below, that’s the last mandatory grade
This is Pythagorean theorem for the similarity of triangles
could you source that?
Source: Me and my little cousin.
See for yourself in old textbook (page 144)
https://archive.org/details/mathematics-textbook-class-10-2006-ncert/page/144/mode/2up
Thanks.
That’s what the article says and nothing about the title conflicts with it. These are all pretty basic concepts that should be taught early.
Thank you
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Also 'cuz I’d like to see how they could progress in the curricula without Pythagoras and the periodic table.
Thanks for that. I hate people who leave out important information and context. They are evil.
Except this comment seems to leave out that mandatory science education stops in India at 10th grade, so the periodic table and evolution will not be taught to Indian students unless they pursue higher grades of education.
Edit: It appears all of this is also moot, since a comment below pointed out that these things have been added back into the curriculum:
Well, I’d need to repeat my comment below yours again.
You’re right, and I’m sorry for the immediate reaction without further research, I can only hope my edited comment sheds more light on the issue
What the actual fuck? Those are all taught way before 10th grade here in the US, even in my ass-backwards state.
I feel like they worded it poorly or misinterpret it from the source. Post-soviet edu has all three at 5th grade (age 10-12), the beginning of the middle school, because only then you can start and learn respective fields for remaining 5-7 years. If you place them in the last year of school it you don’t have a room for that at all.
I suppose it should’ve meant ‘in their whole 10-year program’, not the tenth grade.
We learned Pythagorean theorem in 7th grade when I was a kid 30 years ago. I think they learn it even earlier now.
Yes they are in India too. This article is misleading. It is about a specific advanced concept using the Pythagorean theorem.
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Okay the evolution part, though stupid, is religious fundie par for the course. But middle school geometry? Are they fucking retarded?
Nah they just understand the superiority of beans to triangles
Short answer, yes.
In 2018, Indian minister for higher education Satyapal Singh baffled the scientific community by demanding that the theory of evolution be removed from school curriculum becaue “no one ever saw an ape turning into a human being.” Other political leaders from the ruling Bhartiya Janata Party came to his defense on social media.
“no one ever saw an ape turning into a human being.”
Maybe phylogenetics then? Tells pretty much the same story and is based on measurable data.
“I ain’t never seen no animorphs”
That statement alone speaks to his fundamental misunderstanding of what evolution is. Stupid people not knowing a subject, understanding their entirely flawed guess is wrong (I agree with them there) yet not realizing WHY they’re wrong, then barring it because how ridiculous what they think it is sounds. Dunning something something Kruger something. I’m 100% for teaching kids that gorillas just dont turn into humans and actually teach them what evolution means.
Everyone knows different dog breeds were invented by god in the 18th century
Geophrey Oliver Dinglehopper?
Clearly that man needed to be taught more about evolution when he was in school.
The thing is, evolution makes sense, so long as you aren’t going to outright reject the idea that humans aren’t a different category of thing from the rest of Animalia. It gets weird when you get deep enough to see that we share an ancestor with plants and bacteria and even archaea, but we have enough evidence that by the time you’re being asked to understand that fact you can see that line and understand how photosynthetic microbes slowly built new systems while other microbes ate the remains of them before slowly bit by bit developing new traits to differentiate and fill niches.
They don’t want to think of themselves as such, because it’s a form of humility to understand that you evolved from a worm that just happened to have a particularly effective means of transmitting signals along the course of its body. They want to think their gods made them to rule nature.
Yes.
Imagine not knowing the fucking Pythagorean Theorem. Imagine not being able to do basic trigonometry, a cornerstone of physics.
A cornerstone of construction
Hell, I used it to figure out the optimal viewing angle when mounting my TV on the wall.
I use it so often I write a function for it into my calculator in college. Because everything is a sinusoid or triangle it just keeps showing up
I used a website to calculate that for me because I’m an idiot and it all seems like magic to me.
Any sufficiently advanced technology does. It’s nice to have tools, whether they’re ready baked ones or there’s some assembly required. The latter tends to be more adaptable, but using what’s in reach is smart.
Yes indeed they are
Ok don’t make it mandatory but then what would you be teaching instead? These are all like the basic building blocks of chemistry and geometry. You just aren’t gonna teach kids those subjects then?
I think there’s an argument to be made for letting students specialize a bit earlier than college freshman or sophomore 18-20 years old). I think a basic foundation of subjects is something everyone should have, but an entire year of something like chem or physics or bio? That’s about as useless for humanities people as an entire year of reading plays would be for science types.
Maybe a semester on each one is sufficient, and then after 10th grade (16-18 YO) you can choose to focus more on humanities vs STEM. You can still leave something similar to the current curriculum in place for the undecided students. And of course you can still have some crossover with electives.
I think you could make an argument of combining the essentials of physics and chemistry into a single year long course but that would include teaching the conservation of energy, periodic table and so on.
But I disagree that people don’t use apply these subjects in your life. I think it’s pretty necessary to be able to estimate distance or be able to engineer repairs at home without having to call a professional or order brand new goods, or for chemistry, be able to clean your home without accidentally making a bomb.
All of these topics are : How the Universe Works 101
…and they apply to literally any and every field of study…
General knowledge like this is ducking priceless when it comes to understanding… so. ducking. much.
That aside, I also think your specialization comment is stupid. Did you happen to graduate from a school in India in the past 16 months?
I’m a humanities major. I’ve used pythagorean theorem in my life but never the periodic table. However, the table (and Pythagoras) would still be included under 1 semester of chem.
Plus the UK lets students specialize earlier than the US does, so fuck them I guess?
99% of authors or commentators or journos writing about climate change need a 1-tonne solid carbon periodic table smashed over their head.
Everyone in UK would be taught pythagoras, periodic table, evolution at secondary school. Some learning disabled or who DGAF might skip over it or won’t actually learn it; but it’d be at taught in basic terms on the general syllabus for most people before age 16. Certainly anyone specialising in science / maths at 16-18 would be expected to know this stuff at a reasonable level from secondary school.
Having had to choose only 3 subjects at age 16, it’s very limiting for young people who don’t really know what they are doing. You drop one thing and it rules out a whole swathe of things you might never have known would be useful. I sort of wish i’d been forced to do chemistry longer, I dropped it because it was boring and I was allowed to choose stupid shit that proved FAR more useless (Economics).
I’d have probably ended up doing something more interesting and maybe even useful with my life - though maybe the grass is always greener.
“101”? Sounds like an American educational system perspective.
Maybe if you spent more time learning some civics and less focusing on making IT working STEM lords you wouldn’t have voted in Trump.
This is not priceless general knowledge, it’s hyper niche knowledge that doesn’t apply to the majority of adults lives. Anyone in my country who wanted to pursue these topics would have picked “advanced” versions of the units during year 9/10.
What? May the universe take care of you my friend.
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The pythagorean theorem or the theory of evolution is not “super niche knowledge”… Do you understand how foundational the pythagorean theorem is? Or how important knowing the theory of evolution is to understand how nature works?
And the periodic table of elements is literally the building blocks of our reality. Sure, less critical knowledge then the other two, but still vital in my opinion
I mean, how much scaremongering about “chemicals” and stuff could be resolved if people just knew the very basics of chemistry?
These things very much tie into being a rational citizen of the world that actually knows how the world works and doesn’t live in fantasyland. This is literally just stuff to ensure that we share a common fundamental view of reality
Do you understand how little knowing how evolution works has benefit the average persons life? And as a general concept it could be explained in a sentence, nothing needing entire unit material dedicated to.
And scare mongering isn’t rational, so why would you expect people to be cured by being given information.
Because knowledge is a preventative measure to being manipulated
People also say that knowing that historical events happened don’t benefit them, would you agree with that too? These things are a lot more nuanced than just what direct benefit they give you. Knowing the basics of how our world works, including how nature works, is useful.
You have no idea how many times I had to explain evolution to people because it was relevant to the conversation and where they were tricked by some weird bullshit. Gaps in knowledge are exploitable, but not only that, the more you know, the higher your capability of connecting concepts together in a sound manner is
Knowing how evolution works has been generally useful in my life, and I am very happy I know how it roughly works, and the field I’m in is nowhere near biology or chemistry or nature
Seems like you have not TIL’d fully.
Setting aside that it was temporary (though I could agree there is some malice on the committee’s part in this respect), the topics in discussion were already introduced in lower grades and the complex aspects were moved to higher grades.
But the most important part that never ever got discussed since the story broke, is that the change did got implemented because the committee listened to the feedback and dropped the plan merely a week later. [0]
The government and education ministry have some glaring flaws, but this is not one of them. They continue to make questionable decisions that deserve attention and criticism; yet these issues rarely receive the focus that this story has generated.
Please stop with the FUD, even if it is due to your lack of knowledge on the matter.
[0] http://toi.in/WFlcAb44 (apologies for linking this abomination in the name of a news website, but they were the ones to break the news and get the interviews.)
E: missed a word.
sorry about that
No problem. Thank you for adding the link to the story update.
You could highlight the relevant content of the second link, like you did with the first. Most people are not going to click a second link.E: noticed that the title has been updated.
Goddamn fascists man.
What else to expect from a RW govt who thinks hindu religious scriptures have all the knowledge
Are they still taught that mitochondria is the powerhouse of the cell?
If they cut there, what else is there to teach?
All I know is where the pee is stored.
Hey I understood that reference!
Yea
India is super conservative. A lot of Trump’s biggest supporters are Indian in the US.
Those darn triangles!
Modi’s ahead of Trump on many many things. Mulsims are not yet lynched by mobs in the US
Modi did it in '02
Things no one asked for and these are the stuff students in India study with the greatest interest. They could remove the mundane boring topics but no.
@prirai Science needs basic humanities and the reverse too. Unless everything is religion
That’s what social sciences are for
