And you shouldn’t

The average USAan lib is going to put themselves over the lives of anyone else every single time

If you can be fine with seeing our government supporting literal honest-to-god no-foolin’ genocide, then you are scum

There is no excuse, you are scum and you deserve nothing but scorn and derision

These people are voting for Adolf Hitler out of fear that Joseph Goebbels would be worse. You should not forgive them.

the most ridiculous and infuriating thing i see is people at my college attending SJP meetings and pro-Palestine protests and then talking about voting dems afterwards. how does one not see the contradictions there. makes me even warier and more distrustful of them.

Liberals are similar to stupidpolers.

They think any movement to the left will alienate everyone and doom the party to irrelevance under fascism.

Yes, many if not most Americans are CHUDs and would probably think even the ERA is too scary. But as Lenin said, tailism is a doomed strategy that opens gateways to right opportunists. I’m not saying it’s easy, and there is a chance of failure. But any vanguard or any other org can work to make these ideas less scary to the masses.

we really gotta start rethinking what propaganda is and how to attack it because the entire content delivery system most Americans are plugged right into, and most of the worlds lib brained treat hogs tbh - everything you consume, from entertainment to news to politics is designed to keep you fuckin’ strapped in and, even if you can conceive of ideas and views outside of the approved norm, you lack the initiative to act upon them, be it through coercion, intimidation, mockery, misrepresentation - doesn’t matter - information is centralized and monopolized - culture is centralized and monopolized - hell the main ways people meet and socialize are fucking centralized and monopolized - at no point is there even an insertion point for “palestinian lives matter” in the liberal-thought-stream. It’s locked down.

We need a goddamn butlerian jihad istg

I’m in a similar place. at first I agreed with Will’s “I’m not the vote police” line but now I disagree and have become the vote judge; I fucking judge anyone’s ass for affirmatively consenting to genocide and exermination and a policy of mass sexual violence on prisoners

It really has been vile to observe and has only deepened my commitment to not voting for Kamala

As a non American, I just see them as similar to Trump voters. At the end of the day the USA is a single party state with two wings, a facade. The people of the United States, by and large, will continue to support their country’s imperial endeavours until they clash with an “enemy” strong enough to halt them.

The specific combination of factors in the historical formation of U.S. society—dominant “biblical” religious ideology and absence of a workers’ party—has resulted in government by a de facto single party, the party of capital. The two segments that make up this single party share the same fundamental liberalism. Both focus their attention solely on the minority who “participate” in the truncated and powerless democratic life on offer. Each has its supporters in the middle classes, since the working classes seldom vote, and has adapted its language to them. Each encapsulates a conglomerate of segmentary capitalist interests (the “lobbies”) and supporters from various “communities.”

American democracy is today the advanced model of what I call “low-intensity democracy.” It operates on the basis of a complete separation between the management of political life, grounded on the practice of electoral democracy, and the management of economic life, governed by the laws of capital accumulation. Moreover, this separation is not questioned in any substantial way, but is, rather, part of what is called the general consensus. Yet that separation eliminates all the creative potential found in political democracy. It emasculates the representative institutions (parliaments and others), which are made powerless in the face of the “market” whose dictates must be accepted.

Marx thought that the construction of a “pure” capitalism in the United States, without any pre-capitalist antecedent, was an advantage for the socialist struggle. I think, on the contrary, that the devastating effects of this “pure” capitalism are the most serious obstacles imaginable.

[…] Behind this facade there is still a people, of course, despite its evident political weaknesses. Nevertheless, my intuition is that the initiative for change will not come from there, even if it is not impossible that the American drive for hegemony will subsequently come to clash with others, which could begin the movement for a fundamental transformation.

• Samir Amin, Revolution From North to South

I bet half the people in here were liberals and believed the media narratives before they were radicalized and have forgotten. Thankfully there were people in their lives who radicalized them who didn’t have these kinds of rigid anti-social frameworks regarding tactics in mass politics and agitation/education. I bet half the people in hexbear and socialist orgs in general in the US voted for Democrats Obama-Clinton even after they’d begun heinous destruction of Libya and Syria and all the slavery and ethnic cleansings. I bet many voted against Trump for Clinton after Obama started with Saudi and others to committing the Yemen genocide and bombing of weddings and hospitals etc. because they also bought into “lesser evilism” or otherwise believed what the media told them, before their political development changed their perspectives; so also by this logic “cowardly little hearts dumb fucking crackers etc. etc. etc. barbara pit never forgive etc.etc.” Why would anyone be convinced by this attitude?

There is and has been and will be defections happening en masse from the democrats — since 2016 even, and exponentially now, as much as there has been any change from the status quo toward a further increase of ‘immediately en masse announcing unconditional support and attacking defectors’. And these defectors from the Democrats weren’t spurred by people on the left abusing them and saying they deserve death and we’ll never forgive them etc. Not a single one. IN FACT MANY ARE SPURRED THE OPPOSITE AND LEAVE THE DEMOCRATS BECAUSE OF THE DERANGED SHITLIB ABUSE OF CRITICS so you’re not helping by doing the same exact thing as the hardcore democrats just from another angle. Communists are able to be right because of their ability, with historical and dialectical materialist conceptions of history, economics, and class, to have coherent, incisive, structural critiques on systems and mass movements in their class representation; with which to drive and agitate along existing sharpening contradictions to create ruptures and breakthroughs and realignments in class society for the benefit of and/or for the political education of the working class; not because they can be the best at being spiteful or mean toward random liberal voters in a hegemonic liberal environment over not having already developed internationalist class consciousness good enough or media/propaganda awareness and criticality good enough, and by being driven to act in ineffective, destructive, or self-destructive ways by ignorant fear and shallow charlatanry by their politicians, media, and people around them like everyone is set up to do and driven to do from day 1.

Many of the relatively politically conscious democrat voters don’t even deny the atrocities and certainly aren’t cheering it; they just get duped into media narratives that Trump is so much worse on this as well as everything else and Trump is Hitler and etc. etc. and don’t realize how actively complicit, and compliciltly feckless, the Democrats are with all of these same terrible things; and are scared into helping Democrats as the structure is built to make them do as even many communists including in hexbear were duped into before as well. A lot of Democrat voters don’t even know much about realities beyond what the media tells them about, it’s just project 2025 and various whitewashes. Many don’t know the full truth of the border camp situation being just as bad or worse than under Trump until they are taught and showed that Biden deregulated the camps and allowed for and advertised with state money the private subcontracting of the concentration camps for private profit; while issuing executive orders to shut down the border entirely like Trump tried to do who was himself blocked by the courts because it was too extreme. Which is another point of agitation in the list of increasingly sharp and increasingly obvious contradictions between Democratic party’s stated goals and what the media states about their goals and purposes vs what they actually do, to continue railing against Democrats for and explaining to working class voters why starving them of margins will break the duopoly because of the Democrats’ structural inability to reorient to the left; wedging them apart into support for 3rd parties and radical organizing, which is happening and has been happening and will increase with every political actor who keeps perspective to do so.

“Never forgive” what does that even mean? Are you going to car bomb random people who have harris/walz stickers? Never try to radicalize anyone ever again if they voted Democrat? Beat people up for believing what their media told them about lesser evilism/Dems being the least bad option? Just give up? Or continue agitating and highlighting these contradictions, and in ways that aren’t unhinged and anti-social such that it’d even make other communists in real life organizing uncomfortable and doubtful of your political effectiveness if some of these comments were said toward random liberals of which you were probably one just a few years ago.

Many of the people who are duped into it aren’t even happy about what the Democrats do and even hate the Democrats and are ripe for agitation and education to continue in effectiveness. They’re just believing the narratives of the corporate owned media machine and status-quo-hegemonizing content algorithms about “lesser evilism.” Which is the point of attack to convince people otherwise, which you will never do with this “never forgive them throw them in the nazi pit US is doomed and nobody will ever change their political opinion” in these kinds of threads. They need to be taught and shown to realize they need to challenge the actual structures instead of just facilitating things becoming this way through being manipulated into “politics is avoiding maximal perceived harm with votes for who the media says is less evil” And if the Dems do lose, then you will see an upswell of politically active liberals too as happened with the first Trump win, which also will need education and onboarding and splitting away from opportunist or petty-bourgeois trends; by active communists who aren’t spitting on and threatening them because they might have voted for Democrats and making communists look (and be) terrible.

Like “not forgive them” what does that even mean? This is a counter-productive and insular anti-social focus getting this mad at random voters buying into the HEGEMONIC LIBERAL NARRATIVES EVERYONE IS DROWNING IN ALL THE TIME FROM BIRTH, EVEN US, AND ARE EVEN UNCONSCIOUSLY ALGORITHMICALLY FUNNELED INTO REINFORCING, rather than broadening your focus to actually undermine and change it — understanding that and picking your battles to be most effective in organizing mass politics to the ends of socialism and anti-imperialism by fomenting splits along critical lines to wedge misled people out of hollow faith in the duopoly which we’ve seen happening and happening more and more for the past 8 years and will continue to — but by the actions of those with more sense and perspective than the people in this thread and threads like it—imagine Claudia De La Cruz saying some of the wild and vile shit in these threads while she’s campaigning lmao; would never happen because she has perspective and political acumen from study and experience and is trying to build socialism rather than abuse and spite liberals for no purpose other than to pettily see them suffer for shit a lot of them straight up don’t even understand fully. Work all of this into the wider structural critiques highlighting and exposing the contradictions in the Democratic party’s stated goals and what the media says about their goals and purposes vs what they actually do, stand for, who finances them and who they work for, etc. with actual class analysis and materialist conception of the mass movements of society as they are in current reality; and continue organizing for and agitating along those contradictions to foment splits and defections further in the Democrat party into 3rd parties, without making the 3rd parties seem positively unhinged like some of these comments would do by association.

Add it as another essential and undeniable point to beat the drum against Democrat dead-endism and that not only is “lesser evil” counter-productive in that it makes society gradually more tolerant and compliant with increasing evil over time — but that has been the way of things for so long now the Democrats are effectively already equal evil; while uplifting the alternatives to give people, including those masses already holding their nose the past multiple elections and eager for an off-ramp, an actual platform they see to jump off onto. Join the PSL, agitate and educate among your friends and family and community for PSL (or Greens if you want). Draw independent coalition with these left 3rd parties where the interests align (Greens want to break the duopoly as much as the communists; or if they don’t, force them to show themselves opportunists afraid of power and so move their bases to the communists); and further drive the points that the Democrats must be starved of their margins in order to disrupt the duopoly because the duopoly framework benefits the Democrats by keeping a “more (openly) evil” opponent to fear-monger while not offering anything different and ratcheting everything to the right.

on all harris voters

You might think that libs just accept anything that the leadership tells them because they love the Dem party and want to win, so they accept everything for “electability” reasons.

But they just want to be evil rightwingers and “electability” is a ex post facto justification.

Yeah I’ve seen some content out in more mainstream social media focused on getting the libs to be more civil with the anti-genocide crowd and getting them to forgive us but I don’t know that I can forgive them.

Hexbear: Thinking that the Hurricane destroying Red States is good because they voted for Trump is bad because those are working class (mostly white! :)))))))) ) poors you’re talking about.

Also hexbear: if you do an action I repeatedly have said in the past is useless and means nothing, you deserve execution.

Touch grass. Also please, please, please delete social media and talk to people outside your political bubble.

Do you have evidence to support your first sentence? Jon Stewart influenced the shit out of Congress to pass the PACT Act nowhere near Election Day.

Individual voters are never going to have influence on candidates for office with hundred of thousands of constituents (Wyoming’s “at large” Congressman represents around 450,000).

Influence groups, on the other hand, can work for long periods of time to build relationships with elected officials and other groups and media to put show, continuous pressure on. Jon Stewart’s work is a case in point.

Cohesive, identifiable, visible groups of voters, as well, can exert pressure. Such as the “uncommitted” campaign in Michigan. But only because they were cohesive and identifiable and made themselves visible.

Me skipping a vote for Harris (or Trump) tells that candidate nothing about why I didn’t vote for them. Maybe polling data could.