- this is terrifying.
- This does not sound legally permissible, see posse comitatus.
- Members of the military have an obligation to refuse illegal orders. I am neither in the military nor a lawyer, so I can’t go too deep on that.
Even if we see (likely) “act first, let it wind through the courts later,” I’d expect there to be a substantial number of refusals.
Members of the military have an obligation to refuse illegal orders. I am neither in the military nor a lawyer, so I can’t go too deep on that.
I have no doubt this is his first step in ferreting out any military leadership who holds loyalty to the constitution over him personally. Whether this particular plan is blocked or not, it lets him clear out anyone who won’t follow his orders without question going forward.
The US military is actually surprisingly decentralized, with a lot of leeway and authority given directly to NCOs, and officers routinely getting ignored, circumvented, or subjected to malicious compliance if they even order something considered unreasonable, much less illegal. Also see: fragging. Malingering. Mutiny. Desertion. And the worst nightmare - Insider Threat. So much of the military runs purely off of trust, faith, and compliance to words on a page.
You think Don’t Ask Don’t Tell was actually fully complied with? Sentries already fall asleep while at their post, willfully, without needing to have any excuse other than being tired or disliking the watch officer. Roving patrols routinely miss rounds, don’t actually pay attention or inspect anything, and practice what we call “blazing logs”, that is, writing down “all conditions satisfactory” without actually looking at the conditions. Maintenance also gets blazed all the time - technicians just straight up not doing the required maintenance and writing down that they did, substituting unauthorized materials, or half-assing the maintenance. Paperwork just gets “lost”, or never gets signed, never gets filed, never makes it to the intended recipient, just because the admin secretary doesn’t feel like it. Information isn’t entered into a system, including disciplinary or otherwise disqualifying stuff, because the admin or command likes you or needs you.
Purging the upper brass won’t do anything to circumvent or “fix” any of that, it’ll make it worse, because it’ll incentivize the servicemembers to do it even more. The E-4 Mafia will straight up disappear when needed, entire supply chains will stop cold. Separation and disciplinary paperwork will just not get sent.
What does America look like to the world if the most powerful military in the world refuses to follow orders from it’s elected government.
These idiots are going to turn the whole world upside down. Other nations military alliances will shift. China will swoop in to establish stability in it’s region of interest, Taiwan, slowing down our AI race (Biden tried to help get us started on that with the CHIPS act, thanks Brandon). We have a head start on quantum computing research, for now. But Europe is leading on physics and fusion reactors. But science is for nerds, so Europe will lose support from it’s most powerful ally leaving it open to Russia, who isn’t leading in much of anything these days and could really just use a win. First they’ll take the breadbasket because soldiers need to eat. And then continue to disrupt, weaken and push. Maybe start by cutting some major undersea internet cables. That’s got to be difficult to fix again, and again. Israel continues to make itself the enemy of the middle east so, America does what America does, go stomp around it’s old stomping grounds. Shock and Awe Y’all! Don’t worry about those recruitment numbers, they’re just a phase, the poor will still join. China and Russia keep pushing out, taking control of shipping routes and resources, slowly tighten the noose. China is allowed to keep pushing into ‘shithole’ African countries, raping them of their resources. China pushes to AI and Quantum. Russia pushes to Fusion and Physics. Each resource will be dependent on the other. The new world order is in balance.
America dwindles. If we’re lucky AI, or Fusion, will solve climate change before we go Venus.
But wait, up on the hill top! It’s Trump, Donald be his name. He has been crowned God King Emperor of Burgers and Men. Aliens have landed on the Whitehouse lawn. They are… the Whites! Blonde haired and big blue eyes, the most powerful of all aliens in the known galaxy. Their women are red heads, not all of them, but enough to be worth the trouble. Then all true Americans will sing ‘America, Fuck Yeah!’ as they rise up into the glorious heavens above to live with alien Jesus.
🖕🏻🇺🇸🇺🇸🖕🏻👽 Peace Among Worlds!
Or France, which I remind you has thermonuclear weapons, will start selling said thermonuclear weapons to the rest of the EU, which then enables them to conduct retaliatory strategic strikes on Russia if it invades. Iran immediately develops and deploys thermonuclear weapons (they really only need to put the things together, they have all the parts they need) for strategic or tactical strikes against Israel. Japan, South Korea, Taiwan and Australia will acquire thermonuclear weapons for self-defense once the US nuclear umbrella is removed - and they have more than enough resources and know-how to just manufacture nuclear weapons from existing materials. India, with a higher population than China and an existing strategic thermonuclear arsenal, can and will turn the entirety of the Indian Ocean into a no-passage zone simply by attacking merchant transit lanes with their destroyers, effectively blockading China from much-needed Middle Eastern fuel and African minerals.
And if Putin decides to use tactical nuclear weapons in Ukraine or Europe? Pandora’s box is open, baby. Nukes deployed all over the world, mushroom clouds galore. You get cancer, and YOU get cancer, and YOU get cancer, everybody gets cancer.
What does America look like to the world if the most powerful military in the world refuses to follow orders from it’s elected government.
Capable of resisting a rogue government that was put in place by a foreign country? A half-functional democracy that thwarted a Nazi Germany 2.0?
Do we really look cooler on the world stage if we just prove our military are stooges that will ‘just follow orders’?
Then who should world leaders talk to concerning global affairs? The Generals? What countries do we know that are ruled by their militaries? What will the millions of people that elected this monster do? Will they understand, stand back and stand by, and acknowledge the rule of material law? Who should the military pick to rule instead of the elected party? We are fucked. Now he’s up there nominating obvious duds so his next list, the real list, looks like the better choice. The people pulling his strings are setting the stage. Only Alien Jesus can save us now.
The military just needs to say “no.” if ordered to do something unconstitutional, it doesn’t mean they have to enact a military coup.
Your argument technically would apply to Nazi Germany as well, and I really don’t think any of the other countries at the time would’ve looked down upon the Wehrmacht or Germany if they had refused to follow orders, except for Italy and Japan, they would’ve been judging’ hard.
Hello. I’m from Germany and I have bad news for you. If our own history taught me anything, it’s this: When there is a critical mass of citizens (including military personnel) who are willing to ignore common societal values and at the same time there is a corrupt justice system which can just bend the law to their will, there is very little in the way to full scale fascism. You guys have the groundwork for this right in front of your face. Your supreme court is only inches away from fulfilling that role and the last election showed that a majority of people are already blindsided enough to wholeheartedly believe the bullshit that they are being fed.
So please don’t take this lightly. Democracy is not for granted and it can be taken away. It’s a slow process up to a point where things fall in place and then it happens very quickly. In Germany the rise of the Nazis didn’t happen over night. Warning signs were there from the first world war on, and the slow erosion of society along with economic factors was a key element. Hitler himself was widely regarded as a loud mouthed clown with little chance to actually accomplish anything.
The erosion part has been going on in the US for decades now. This time, most of the puzzle pieces needed are already in place.
And about the “they are incompetent, it won’t be that bad” argument. They don’t need competence to break things when they are in power. Breaking things is precisely what these people are looking for. Destruction of democratic values, economic instability, fear, poverty, chaos and social unrest are the key to more power. You just need to look at the designated cabinet positions. Those candidates were specifically chosen to fuck things up in the worst way imaginable. This is not a coincidence. This is a recipe taken right from the fascist’s handbook.
the thing that infuriates me is not so much that it will happen, but that people will not believe that it is happening or has happened
A lot of us know and agree.
We are the ones without any power.
Please find your groups, organize, protest, demand change. We, the rest of the world, saw how big you’ve protested for good before, and it’s needed now more than ever in your country. You’re not powerless, you’re not alone, and your actions matter.
You live in a country that used to pride itself as a world leader, and while that image is long gone and lost, we’re still watching you guys.
And if you’re an early target, have an escape route.
You are correct, and those of us who aren’t fucking morons have known this since even before he came into power the first time. We have a lot of horrible and/or apathetic people. Democracy is worthless if the populace is uninformed or doesn’t participate. Now it’s dead here.
Education should be free, even for the kids if the neighbor you don’t like.
Of course it’s not free, it costs tax money, but it’s okay. Id rather my neighbors had free education, then maybe I’d like them.
I’d rather have less money and less idiots than more of both
I agree, but who says more taxes means having less money? I mean I pay tax, and then my kids are able to go to school, and potentially up to including college for free (when I took classes in college there was a token fee of 60 dollars per semester), and I’ve never paid for an ambulance, even though ive used one, my daughter has used one, and my wife has used several. Token fees at hospitals, and doctors offices. Token fees for expensive medicine, totally free medicine that you need to live.
Maybe it’s my European point of view, I get that let’s say if taxes are raised in a third world country, it would go to politicians families. What’s his name Jared Kushner?
As an American, imagine understanding that, having the data for it with socialized healthcare, and constantly dealing with your country just deciding that it isn’t true because taxes will go up (even though they may no even go up much, the government pays out the ass for the uninsured who wait until it’s an emergency rather than getting preventative care). Committing to mass public transit would save time when you need time saved and make everything cheaper because we wouldn’t need parking spots. So much inefficiency but they’ve decided that government means inefficient and that government inefficiency is stuff like science and welfare.
My condolences. I won’t hate on you Americans who end up as my neighbor in the future. I won’t talk to you either, but that’s not because you are American, that’s because you decided to move to Norway and we don’t talk to our neighbors here
I’ll try to assimilate and attempt to not make too much small talk with the neighbors, if I end up up there, but I am midwestern so I’m probably not going to be able to quit the stuff entirely. We may be annoying, but we’re almost as handy as Germans, so y’all should be able to learn to live around a few of us.
The problem is this is the US. This is the world’s most major superpower. This is the nation whose companies fed and propped up the Nazis. Because what little of democracy there was in the US is now certainly going to fall, it’s going to drag the whole world with it. Too many shitheads in too many countries, including Germany, will be willing to follow suit, and all the major superpowers left will be all too willing to prop them up with little to no regard for what rules they won’t break in the process. We might even see the US trying to strong-arm nations in the same way China has been trying to strong-arm Taiwan. At a time where the surveillance and control tools at their disposal are at a dystopian high. At a time ramping up for chaos due to major environment and resource collapses that we have been foreseeing for decades.
Absolutely. The tendencies are visible all over the world and there will be grave consequences for all of us. However, there are differences. In Germany for example after the horrors of WW2 the political system was specifically designed to prevent something like this from happening again (ironically the creation of the german constitution was heavily influenced by the US). Which sounds like a good thing at first, but what happened in the last decade was basically this: The right wing parties became stronger at every election and as a result there were coalitions forged between opposing parties to prevent right wing parties from taking over power. And this in term lead to years of standstill in political decision making, dragging down the country, because opposing parties tend to block each others ideas. Which in turn made the right wing even stronger, because they now had someone to blame for the resulting mess. Germany and by extension Europe as well have a lot of bureaucracy, which on one side gives a bit of a shield against hostile takeovers, but has a downside of inefficiency in acting to protect democracy too. It’s not looking too good, but Trump’s habit of pissing off his allies might have a net positive effect of uniting people against this bullying and encouraging them to get their shit together. But I think it’s to early to tell. Could as well sway in the other direction and produce Trump bootlicking countries like you said.
About surveillance technologies, indeed the possibilities set our current situation apart from when Nazis came to power in the past. It’s absolutely crazy to witness how a commercial surveillance industry disguised as ad services (Google/Meta/…) created a monster that makes Orwell’s 1984 look like a children’s book, and most people still don’t even understand the implications in order to realize what they’re up against. From a european perspective, there is an upside in that at least for now the EU is actively trying to limit the power of those mega corporations. These processes however are chugging along at snail pace due to the aforementioned bureaucracy. Slow, but steady. Which is at least something.
Sorry for the lengthy reply. It’s such a broad topic and there are no easy answers.
Wonder what one can do about this?
There’s a lot one can do. This is a nice starter:
I would have framed a few things differently, so here’s my take:
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The system thrives on fear and isolation of individuals. So, obviously, do not succumb to fear and apathy.
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Be kind to your fellow humans (that includes people who believe the bullshit! Most of them aren’t evil just very misguided).
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Offer help and look out for each other.
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Get organized, don’t isolate yourself hidden behind your phone. There are organizations in which you can help a good cause and gain a network of trusted people in return.
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Stay alert and aware of the situation.
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Don’t assume safety just because you think you’re not the target right now. They start with the weakest ones but that’s just the beginning.
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Plan ahead and have an escape plan ready just in case.
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Bad news: the worst timeline is locked in for a minimum of two years.
So, the Orange Turd plans on suspending the US Constitution and using the so-called national emergency to go for the full power grab. I certainly hope the US military upholds the pledge to protect the US Constitution.
The US president is the commander in chief and the US military is subservient to US president, never mind how many of them come from the MAGA cult bubble themselves. The military is a poor safeguard for democracy.
The oath to protect the US Constitution from foreign and domestic enemies takes priority. You are correct in one regard, it will depend on the military leadership and soldiers.
We’ll see. The military is under pretty clear orders to defend the constitution from threats both foreign and domestic. Trump ia domestic threat and a fascist, and fascists flip the truth upside down, so he’ll accuse immigrants of being a domestic threat as a way of trying to convince the military to violate their oath. He’ll certainly replace legitimate generals with spineless lackey loyalists, but the oath isn’t to obey generals, it’s to protect the constitution, and it goes from top to bottom.
This will be a trickier test of the military’s quality than WW2.
Bracing for “Wait, I didn’t think you meant me?!?!?”
“Cool, a leopard! Can I pet it?”
[Scene opens on a wide, desolate savanna at dusk. The camera slowly pans over a leopard lying under a tree, its large body barely able to move. The sun is setting, casting a cold, dim light over the scene. Soft wind rustles through the dry grass. The leopard’s eyes are dull, its breathing labored.]
Narrator (soft, somber voice): In the wild, leopards are meant to stalk, to hunt, to climb. But for some, this is no longer possible. These are the leopards of the forgotten savanna… the ones who can no longer live the life they were born to lead.
[Cut to a close-up of another leopard, this one lying next to a watering hole, panting heavily. The camera lingers on its enormous, bloated body, its paws barely able to reach the ground. The leopard’s eyes seem vacant, devoid of the wild spark they once had.]
Narrator: Overfed and unable to move, these leopards have been left to a slow, painful existence. They can no longer hunt their prey, no longer climb the trees to escape danger, no longer feel the thrill of the chase. They are trapped in their own bodies.
[Cue the soft, mournful opening chords of “Angel” by Sarah McLachlan. The camera slowly pans over a third leopard, sluggishly trying to rise, but its massive weight prevents it from standing. It lets out a heavy sigh, its once-strong legs buckling beneath it.]
Narrator: They are the forgotten victims of a world that has abandoned them. Too fat to run, too weak to fight… These leopards are slowly fading, one breath at a time. They need your help.
[Cut to a shot of a leopard staring out over the savanna. The camera lingers on its face, eyes half-closed, its expression one of quiet resignation.]
Narrator: For just $3 a day, you can provide the care and support these leopards so desperately need. A donation will help give them the chance to live a life of dignity. Help them find their way back to the wild they were meant to roam.
[The music swells as the camera fades to black, and the words “Your donation can make a difference” appear in white text on the screen.]
Narrator (whispering): Please, don’t let them suffer in silence. The time to act is now.
[The music fades out, and the SPCA logo appears in the corner, along with a toll-free number and website for donations.]
Like the German version of Nazis before them, they aren’t coming for their biggest target first. They’re coming for their political opposition, the “abortionists”, the atheists, the drug users, the mentally ill…
RFK Jr.:
“I’m going to create these wellness farms where they can go to get off of illegal drugs, off of opiates, but also illegal drugs, other psychiatric drugs, if they want to, to get off of SSRIs, to get off of benzos, to get off of Adderall, and to spend time as much time as they need — three or four years if they need it— to learn to get reparented, to reconnect with communities,”
Re-education camps, huh.
Next up: arson attack on US Congress. And then the Enabling Act.
Didn’t the Canadian burn the Whitehouse down once or something?
Twice.
Don’t make us come down there a third time, I swear to Gord.
Honestly, I’m not seeing a downside here.
From Canadian POV the US is the down side.
Then they could just stay on their side of the border?
American here: genuinely, I would appreciate it if you did.
Hypothetically, what would trigger you guys? Just asking questions…
It usually takes a Canadian Bacon moment where the US actually tries to take part of our sovereign territory by force.
Of course, that’s assuming Trump doesn’t get his wish and Pollievre becomes PM. Because in that case, we’ll likely be too busy fighting our own fascist battles up here to even respond.
Man, I hate to say it out loud, but the current state of Canadian politics isn’t looking great. RIP CBC, at the very least.
Maybe if we’re really lucky Trump will do some absolutely insane shit and his connection to Pollievre will work against the CPC. Mind you, I can’t say I am looking forward to another Liberal government either, but such is the way of the two party system.
If the NDP chose a new, outspoken leader who was a straight white male, they might have a chance.
I hate that sentence, but you’re right, and I ultimately think it would be better for Canada than any of the other two options.
Buzz Lightyear: “Fascists! Fascists everywhere!”
Disparaging Canadian geese does tend to get them riled
You’ve got a problem with Canada gooses, you got a problem with me, and I suggest you let that one marinate!
It’s almost not worth thinkin’ about
Don’t. Please. Whatever will we do to stop you? /s
If you go for the hat trick, may Gord find mercy in your heart to annex the TI region on your march back.
That’s not true. It was the British, and it happened once in 1814. And it didn’t “burn down.”
I swear to Gord
Deliberate misspelling of “God“, famous hockey player, or short for Gordon? More than one of the above?
Canadians conservatives burnt down their own parliament too.
We already had our enabling act, the Supreme Court presidential immunity ruling.
Yep. All of this talk about the makeup of Congress, and having an opposition party becomes moot when you hand power to fascists.
My crazy prediction is that trump will try to duplicate the burning of the Reichstag. Except, in typical fashion, he will do so in a comically inept fashion. He’ll try to burn down the Reichstag, and he’ll actually succeed! Unfortunately, he’ll burn down the Reichstag…the actual Reichstag, not the US capital, but the present-day German parliament building.
Hope everyone in the military is going to be ready because this psycho is going to be calling on you…to do every little thing he wants.
Need to shut down those protesting against him? Better be there.
Need to start beating down people who voted against him? Better be there.
Nothing you’ll do will be for the sake of this country’s entire interests, it’ll be for his interests.
That’s why I’m hoping the military does its job and protects the country and constitution from him.
Well if he has his way, he’s going to be able to remove general at will
So something ive noticed from folks both left and right is the assumption that bureaucracy will be followed. But if the bureaucrat decides to ignore or even kill ya, well ask Aurelian how well that works out. The Military is very bureaucratic a form this, a slip for that, a request for something and frankly speaking I would love to see Trump suffer at the hands of a bureaucratic revolt.
The military has a uniform code of justice they have to follow. Police have qualified immunity, but still sometimes get arrested. Prison riot control have no regulations on behavior or identification. Look for that group to become the main go to for anything that ‘needs taking care of’.
It won’t even be that subtle, they’ll just use unmarked border patrol like last time
Look for that group to become the main go to for anything that ‘needs taking care of’.
Or just Proud Boys and other paramilitary thugs.
Trump saying “your country needs you” and every proud boy - or whatever the fuck - gets a massive hard-on for playing out the roll that the constitution says they are there to prevent
No more migrant workers, they still need slave labor, make everything illegal, arrest the poors, put prisoners to work for pennies…wont be shocked if that is the plan.
“prepared to declare a national emergency and will use military assets to reverse the Biden invasion through a mass deportation program.”
- Trump reposted Fitton’s comment Monday with the caption, “TRUE!!”
I don’t even know what to say. I’m gobsmacked to depression daily that you’re ok with this.
But EGG PRICES! The economy!
And he’s such a strong leader…
(I am paraphrasing actual interviews our local networks did with college students)
I think we need to start using strongman in conversation more for the people who don’t know what it means.
I’m afraid it would just bolster his image. Become a tiktok meme or something…
I think those colleges need to stop charging tuition. Clearly, their education is worthless.
They need to take their phones away in class.
I hate to sound so salty and old, but jeez.
Hey, the democratic party wasn’t close enough to the workers so there was no alternative…
I’m gobsmacked to depression daily that you’re ok with this.
People who sat at home or pretended like they could wash their hands of it by voting 3rd party are OK with this. I’m sure as shit not.
But Obama wore a tan suit!
Where were you when America was violated by the terrorist fist jab?
Also, I will never forget how Michelle Obama sullied this country with her bare arms…
where do you go if you have no papers? a stateless purgatory camp?
they’re called concentration camps because they concentrate all “illegals” in one convenient location for “processing”.
people will lie to you and say it’s not possible. they will lie to you and tell you it would never come to that. they will lie to you and tell you citizens would never allow that to happen.
they lied to themselves for eight years and said never again.
It’s happening again.
You know what amazes me? That any vaguely brown person who voted for Trump didn’t seem to think that even if they are literally carrying their papers at all times and easily able to prove their citizenship, they are gonna be harassed constantly for the next four years. With hopeful some state exceptions, they are going to have to be very careful to speak only 'Murican in public and suppress public display of non-American cultures. They are literally going to be having to watch their backs every day.
WTF.
I imagine the population of New Mexico is going to swell quite a bit in the next four years.
There are not enough ICE officers to conduct mass deportation in red states, let alone blue ones. Trump will require cooperation of local police.
If he uses the military in Blue states, it’s an obvious attack on the 10th Amendment. It’s also illegal to use the military for domestic police work.
We can bet on incompetence for now. Trump needs to grow ICE to a large size before he’s even able to conduct a large scale deportation plan of any kind. Deploying the National Guard would be a faux pas, but that’s probably the workaround else need to prepare for legally.
Oh no, its illegal to use the military for domestic police work? Deploying the National Guard would be a “faux pas”?
Well, I’m sure that will stop him for sure!
Its the next political bulwark and where we rally next. If Trump runs over that bulwark, then we make plans afterwards.
But the Military will NOT want to be seen going house-to-house deporting Puerto Rican American Citizens. I know there’s a lot of racists out there, but if they do that, we just take some pictures and the national level outrage and blatant racism on the troop’s faces will be shown for everyone. And trust me, if a mass deportation order were invoked, 100% legal US Citizens will be swept up in the blatantly racist attack.
These people cannot tell the difference from an illegal Mexican, a legal Haitian or a US Citizen Puerto Rican. I’m serious. So that’s no longer a Trump-specific thing at that point. That’s commanders and soldiers who will have to live with that for the rest of their lives.
That’s commanders and soldiers who will have to live with that for the rest of their lives.
If the second Bush era taught us anything, it’s that there’s plenty of soldiers willing to live with things for the rest of their lives.
This is a border patrol agent invading a Miami Home to take that small boy on the right (Elian Gonzalez) back to Cuba.
This was a defining moment of the 1990s. What happened here was a Cuban family had a claim on Elian Gonzalez, meaning not only was he an illegal alien, arguably the US-side of the Family was kidnapping him. Gonzalez’s father (Cuban side) pushed heavily for US to get Elian back. Ultimately, Clinton agreed with the Father and used deportation agents to capture the child and bring him back to Cuba (effectively deporting him).
Nonetheless, armed troops invading a Miami private home caused a national-level outrage event. Even though it was a 100% illegal alien with a 100% legitimate claim to be deported (ie: be reunited with his Father).
The stories of what will transpire here under Trump will be far more horrific and less gray. They will likely include US Citizens who forgot to hold onto a Driver’s License and suddenly are disappeared (especially if he uses untrained dumbasses like US Military, composed largely of 18 year olds who were too dumb to go to college).
We can rely upon the outrage that will occur, but only if we document and take pictures of the horror. The focus needs to be on documenting the horrors as the next step. In any case, no reasonable troop will want to be seen as the man on the left, and no commander will want to be the one to sign their name okaying something like this again.
That also ignores 4th Amendment issues and court cases. How many homes and warrants are they going to issue? Just fucking everyone in a neighborhood? Like how do you actually make this work?
I remember when this happened and think about it often and its significant impact in the world of spin, media bias, and disinformation.
We don’t get such large media stories about immigrants here in Texas. We just get small articles about dozens of people watched drowning while crossing the river or suffocating in train cars.
The people here are numb and complacent about those stories and they’ll soon be downright malicious when they realize no one cares or everyone is too scared to do anything.
Like how do you actually make this work?
There’s pretty much one solution to this problem, as the Germans found out. These people will be placed in concentration camps while they languish and slowly die.
These people will be placed in concentration camps
Passive voice because you’re ignorant. Who will place people in concentration camps?
Because the who is incredibly important in this scenario and tells us how to fight. Are you saying the military will be deployed to create concentration camps across America? Are you saying local Police need to build these camps and maintain them? Or, does Donald trump need to pass a new law + build a new organization from scratch that will oversee this?
For-profit prison system still requires $$$$ to be pumped in for it to work. Where does Trump get the money for these facilities? Do the local states pay for them?
I’m talking about our serious next option here. Not pie in the sky fantasy scenarios. The realistic move is a boneheaded attempt by Trump to deploy the military for a mass deportation attempt, but he hasn’t thought that far ahead yet. He hasn’t figured out where people will be imprisoned, he hasn’t figured out how to train the military for this task. He hasn’t figured out US Citizen rights during deportation sweeps. He hasn’t figured out jurisdiction yet. Etc. etc.
There’s details to the plan that we can disrupt as it comes into fruition. We resist at every step and stop it at every turn possible.
The red state police (like state troopers), red city police, county sheriffs, and any number of federal agencies under homeland security and DOJ.
There plenty of personnel available to make the lives of people here both legally and illegally miserable. And remember, the misery is the point.
Directly capturing and imprisoning / deporting only 5% of this population would make a huge impact on inflicting misery and fear.
As far as what people will and won’t do when given orders, almost nobody in this country who works full time has any safety net or nest egg. If you decide to quit your job on principle, many people are less than 6 months away from eviction. That makes it very difficult to stand your mortal ground without solidarity. Blue regions might develop that solidarity. In red regions, seems less likely.
Passive voice because you’re ignorant. Who will place people in concentration camps?
Listen, just because you haven’t paid attention to the things the Trump team has published and said doesn’t mean you need to call someone else ignorant.
Theyve already said they plan to use local agencies to assist and anyone refusing would lose their federal funding. There are PLENTY of Sheriffs that would jump on the chance to round people up. Your assumption that the feds, ICE, and CBP won’t play ball is completely unfounded. They have people already lined up for positions they need to make this happen. That’s on top of Trump’s former campaign manager literally saying they want assistance from their followers as “shock troops” for this as well. They’ve begun targeting sites for new detention centers near large cities. All of this shit you should already know Mr Expert.
You want to make the argument that theyre too incompetent to be successful, fine. That’s probably our biggest safety net right now. But acting like it’s not possible or that they don’t have explicit plans is asinine.
the national level outrage and blatant racism on the troop’s faces will be shown for everyone
And what will anyone be able to do about it? That’s the problem with installing a fascist autocracy. Outrage does not deter fascists. The left needs to organize and be prepared to physically obstruct these actions, and that is not going to be without danger.
He also stated he is going to courtmartial past and present commanders. I will assume that is so those that are left are like Russias, loyal to a fault.
And what will anyone be able to do about it?
We tie it to deep state federal officials invading private US Homes. And then Republican support collapses over the events.
Speak the language of the Republicans and they’ll agree with you on this. Invading private homes with US Troops, looking for contraban (ie: illegal immigrants in this case) with mass warrants would be uncomfortable to even Republicans in these areas.
If Republicans really are cool with this then whatever. Onto the next bulwark. But we need to prepare our arguments and discussion points. But we will work to defend our political rights at each stage of this process as Trump tries to do random bullshit.
Invading private homes with US Troops, looking for contraban (ie: illegal immigrants in this case) with mass warrants would be uncomfortable to even Republicans in these areas.
I agree that it’s worth trying. If Republicans can be persuaded that the “deep state” is becoming more intrusive it might provoke some questioning on their part. But I fear they would just retreat to “Those people must have done something to bring it upon themselves,” and “It won’t happen to me or my friends.” Until it does, when they’ll be shocked but also silenced.
Outrage can stop it if we present it in the correct argument to them.
What happens to the assets of illegal aliens that are deported? I bet that the police seizes it and then its auctioned off (or something close to that). So now we have a pretty straightforward story of federal level officials invading the homes of US Citizens and trying to steal their bitcoins.
The far-right outrage writes itself at that point, if they really go the route of mass deportations. But we need to make the event truly outrageous when it happens, and not just in a leftist mindset. The truth of mass deporations is horrific even to those with far-right viewpoints. But you have to frame the argument correctly.
What part of people voting for this exact scenario makes you think they aren’t going to be “cool” with it happening? Hell, Hispanic people voted for this. Why is it my job to save them from what they asked for? If we keep bailing out idiots when they do dumb things they will never learn how dumb they are.
I’m not banking on that happening in large enough numbers to change anything but I am not batman either. We signed up for this and we all need to realize what that actually means if we want to have any hope of making better decisions in the future. Some of us won’t learn until well after that knock on the door and I don’t have anything to say about that other than I’m not the one knocking.
US Neighborhoods aren’t organized into “illegal” parts and “legal” areas.
A mass deportation scheme means hassling, and likely invading, many legitimate homes of legitimate citizens. And once we start talking about what Republicans hide in their homes, its… well… the usual stuff. Porn, Guns, and the like. But that’s not the kind of things that Republicans like revealing to federal officials.
Any mass deportation scheme will involve getting large numbers of Republicans personally involved into the mess. Maybe there’s no risk of deportation (especially if they’re white). But its still a huge hassle, and having legions of police and/or military going door-to-door looking for illegal anything makes anyone uncomfortable (even if they’re “only” hiding guns and porn in their basement).
I’d expect most Republicans to demand to see the warrants and close their doors until proper documents are shown. Which then provides Undocumented the cover they need (ie: now the Undocumented can do the same thing: just ask for a warrant and close the door otherwise).
Of course they aren’t but that’s what I’m saying. If people thought this was going to be quick, easy, and precise they need to learn that isn’t how it works. I say good luck to them but don’t ask for my help when the lesson turns out to be painful.
I mean if this is a real thing (and I have no idea if its as bad as we have seen all over), but I am sure there will be tip lines and you could tell them hey that guy with all the trump flags has been bringing in brown people at night. I think they are hiding them from the roundups. Might do something… then again it might not.
The world doesn’t care man. The world doesn’t even care about genocide. why do you think the world would give a shit about mass deportation?
Stoking a violent insurrection while plotting a coup violated a few laws and norms, too.
Trump will require cooperation of local police.
Plenty of pigs are already on his side, and would help him with this willingly.
Also, as president, SCOTUS has already ruled that he can pretty much do what he wants as long as it’s an “official” act.
Plenty of pigs are already on his side, and would help him with this willingly.
In some red states, yes. But that’s largely in rural areas. I’m not sure if even a city in a deep-red state like Houston would cooperate with Trump.
Its not up to the Police in any case. It’d be likely up to the local Attorney’s General.
Also, as president, SCOTUS has already ruled that he can pretty much do what he wants as long as it’s an “official” act.
If Trump wants to personally come down and deport Mexicans one by one, I’d love to see it. But otherwise, Trump is going to write a thing that likely won’t make sense. Local police won’t get any money for immigration issues and will complain about funding and long hours. Then all the shit will collapse unless Congress gives more money for a deportation program.
Plenty-o-pigs sounds like a great police hookup app
I’m sure they can put a call out to anyone with a gun and a hatred of immigrants (legal or otherwise) to volunteer to help out. Maybe they can even all have matching bands around their arm so they know who are helping.
Yeah that’s called a US Army Private.
What you’re ignoring is how fucking dumb an 18Y Old with a gun is. There’s a fucking reason we don’t use them in US Territories. When the bloodshed starts, it will be because dumbass high-school dropouts opened fire in an American neighborhood.
What you’re also ignoring is that US Army commanders know this. They know how dumb their recruits are. Its the job of the commander to make sure the troop under them are put on missions where they have the correct and proper training. A “serious” Army Commander would refuse any immigration / customs job, because US Military troops are simply NOT trained for this. US Military are trained to kill people and should only be used to kill people. That’s why we focus on using them outside of the USA.
Like, seriously. Do you expect a 18Y old high school dropout to handle a warrant over a house correctly?
I don’t know what’s worse, the dumb kids tricked into joining the army, or the dumb kids that even the army rejected after giving them weapons training so they joined the police force instead.
I understand what you’re trying to say, but I do want to clear up some misconceptions people have about U.S. soldiers.
High school drop-outs are not eligible for the U.S. military. GED holders might be if they score high enough on the ASVAB, but it’s generally rare.
Also, U.S. military commanders, and officers in general, are both morally and legally required to disobey illegal orders. While the President may be the commander-in-chief, officers swear an oath to the Constitution, not the President.
That’s why General Milley publicly apologized and considered resigning after unwittingly letting federal troops be used to clear protestors, not knowing Trump wanted it for a photo op instead of legitimate need. That’s why so many generals called him a threat to democracy. That’s why Trump fired so many generals, because they wouldn’t go along with his stupid shit.
I have hope that the U.S. active duty military will not get involved in this. I know for sure they don’t want to get involved in this.
A couple federal judges have opined that he can declare an invasion on US land. This unlocks a lot of powers for him if they interpret the laws in their favor.
You say that. But the minute people’s private homes get invaded by US Troops, US citizen’s opinions will immediately change.
Republicans are strongly pro-4th Amendment and are distrustful of the police as well. Getting wrapped up in police raids just because you live in the wrong neighborhood will piss off a LOT of Republicans. And a mass program that forces citizens to ICE / Police / Military into your house (be it a massive push for warrants, or some other mass-scale law) would be a significant number of breaks with the Constitution.
Remember: the Republicans are “Deep State” fuckers who distrust federal officials. Do you really think they’d be cool with orders that let police into their private homes?
Doesn’t matter. A fascist at the head of government, whose party is in line behind him, controlling all branches of the federal government, having enough military support, can shush as many opinions as he wants.
He’s already demonstrated over and over that he will do whatever he wants, and dare anyone to stop him. To date, not only has nobody stopped him, or applied a single real consequence, the electorate has seen fit to increase his power.
Republicans used to be strongly opposed to Russia, too, how’s that working out?
Doesn’t matter. A fascist at the head of government, whose party is in line behind him, controlling all branches of the federal government, having enough military support, can shush as many opinions as he wants.
The military is incredibly weak when it comes to domestic matters. Without police training, they will be incompetent.
There’s a reason why part of Hitler’s rise required the rise of the SS, a separate branch of the military AND police that was loyal to Nazism and Hitler alone.
What Trump is going to do next is cut off the heads of our Military and try to bring them under his control. What will actually happen is that US Military will become incredibly weak, as leaders are the experts in navigating the bureaucracy and actually getting things done. Installing dumbass loyalists at the top won’t do much, and I’m not convinced that there’s enough competent leaders in Trump’s circles to actually do everything he wants to do.
They don’t necessarily need to be competent. They only need to be loyally fascist and willing to deliver criminal orders. Firepower “trumps” competency in a whole lot of short-term scenarios. Beyond that, they only need a sufficient number of servicepeople to execute those orders. Even if most servicepeople refuse to obey, the US military is such a massive organization that there will be more than enough who do.
A best case scenario is one where one part of the US military stands up with force against the other part, and the fascists lose, followed by a military coup.
Incompetence means they won’t be able to get anything done at all. Which leads to the rise of SS or other loyalist police groups (in the case of Putin: KGB/FSB).
You’re ignoring a huge part of what makes fascism actually work. The ability for orders to be carried out at all.
Secondly, its not military powers that allowed SS to help Hitler or KGB/FSB to help Putin. Its police powers that let them do that. And Donald Trump has royally fucked his reputation with the FBI, the closest thing to a proper police agency.
I’d keep an eye to see if Trump can successfully take over FBI, because that’s where the worst-case scenario lies. But FBI lost their headquarters back in 2016 because Trump fucked them over, and Trump still hates them because of Jack Smith’s most recent investigation. So I’m betting on incompetence here.
Force means jack shit. Police powers are the powers to launch investigators and build intelligence. Knowing who and how and why to arrest people is the power of the Police. And a corrupt police is the most dangerous.
Military? They can shoot but they don’t know what to do after that. There are Military Police units, but they’re too small for any real action. Its FBI and other police agencies that have the real power that you’re talking about.
It’s not an on/off switch. Of course the military will be less efficient and more error-prone; that doesn’t mean they wouldn’t be able to do anything.
Need to put down a big protest in St Louis? Send in troops with live rounds, none of that less lethal bullshit. Maybe it takes a couple days longer to get them there, maybe there aren’t quite as many boots on the ground as you wanted, maybe they get deployed in kind of dumb ways.
They’re still far better armed, far more cohesive, and far more replenishable than the protesters they seek to trample. The military would still win, they don’t have to be perfect, they just have to be better enough than their opponent.
Now imagine if the opponent isn’t “protesters,” but “these brown people we’ve conditioned you to feel animosity towards, and they’re iLlEgAlS!” Those brown people aren’t even loosely organized into a protest, and as long as the troops aren’t popping “my” people (yet), the public pushback is going to be weak as fuck.
Hell override the posse comatatus act and use federal military troops.
If it gets that far, and I’m not convinced it will, Troops aren’t trained for immigration issues.
Do you think 18 year old dumbass Privates and Corporals know the difference between a Puerto Rican US Citizen and an illegal Mexican? Do you think US Troops have any training on police actions? Lawyers or courts?
That’s a disaster waiting to happen. We use troops rarely because they’re dumbasses with a gun. We give them exceptional fighting training, but no training on finer details of policing. Use of force will be too high, rights will be trampled, US Citizens will 100% get caught up as military has no fucking training on this subject.
If it gets that far, then we know what to do. Take pictures, document, build national level outrage.
If it gets that far, then we know what to do. Take pictures, document, build national level outrage.
Defend yourself and your fellow human beings.
The guy who couldn’t build A WALL is going to orchestrate a mass deportation on millions and millions of people? Ok. Lol. Also, what happens when fruit/vegetables start to rot on the vine because they don’t have anyone who will take their shit wages to do it.
he will 100% focus on “Democrat cities” before he ever rounds up farm workers.
Again, he ain’t gunna do shit. He’s all talk. I’m not here for the doomer end of democracy shit either.
I stand firmly by this statement: “Politics are never as good as they seem and they are never as bad as they seem.”
Except this time they really are as bad as seem, and middle-ground people like you are a big part of why we are in this mess. Sure, maybe the Cunt is all talk and no bite rn, but he’s still gonna try and do stupid shit and the more we let him (and people like him) get away with it the more this whole thing falls apart. This is quite literally the end of democracy type shit that happens every time an empire falls. If you’re too blinded by your rose tinted glasses to see this happening, just wait 4 years when the Cunt runs again and we let it happen like a bunch of fucking idiot minions.
middle-ground people like you are a big part of why we are in this mess
I am in no way, shape, or form “middle-ground” and your assumption that I’m a centrist because I don’t completely agree on the other side’s competence is asinine. I am a through and through progressive. But guess what? All you can do is vote. No amount of whining online will change anything. My optimistic views on his ineptitude and the likely in-fighting in the republican party will stifle things is my opinion, and I’m sorry you feel differently. Screaming from the rooftops that the end is coming will not help either, dude. Get off the internet and go do something that helps you.
… never as good as they seem and they are never as bad as they seem.
This argument is, by literal definition, a middle-ground. It’s also an exceedingly dangerous and naive idea, especially when it leads to us electing actual pedophiles and rapists to make decisions for us on a national level. Its an idea shared by far too many people in this world and perpetuated by those at the top for the sole purpose of driving us all apart and preventing anyone from ever caring enough to do anything about it. This has fuck-all to do with opinions and everything to do with reality that is happening right now. Ineptitude is always lethal, and doubly so when it leads an army of morons that bend to its every whim while sitting at home saying “He’s not that bad”.
Also, side quest/point, voting is a statistically meaningless activity (still do it, you dummies) and is absolutely not the only thing one can do. DO whine about it all online. DO scream about it from the rooftops. DO make a big loud, obnoxious shitstorm so big that all the idiots that dumbly stare at the fire as it burns us all alive have to actually get up and join the conversation.
I actually tend to agree that it’s not going to be as bad as it looks right now. It’s never as bad as the pessimists think it’s going to be.
However, the pessimists think it’s going to be very, very bad. It’s only going to end being being merely bad.
You’re not wrong that their lack of competence will get in the way. However, I think you are wrong in how that’s going to play out. The first attempts are going to be a boondoggle. They will still hurt countless people. The strategy at that point should be to wrap them up dealing with the consequences of that boondoggle so that they can’t accomplish much else until we can build real working class power.
But that second part doesn’t happen on its own.
It’s never as bad as the pessimists think it’s going to be
That depends on the timescale you are considering. Most of the people who would tell you otherwise because they were suffering in WW2 are dead by now. If you have spent your entire life in a comparatively stable and safe environment (like I did), you might assume that things can’t get that bad.
I think an assumption like that is dangerous, because it gives you a false sense of security
But guess what? All you can do is vote.
What are you talking about? Voting is the very least you can do. Get active. Contact your representatives. Take to the streets in protest. Stand up for something. You call him a defeatist and then say there’s nothing more to do.
Take your own advice and get off the internet and do something that helps you. Hoping the Repubs consume themselves doesn’t do shit. That’s not an ‘optimistic’ view. It’s a lazy and cowardly one.
What have YOU done to help?
So no actual answer, just an attempt at redirection.
I stand firmly by this statement: “Politics are never as good as they seem and they are never as bad as they seem.”
That works until it doesn’t. “I assume neither side is actually a Hitler,” is a perfectly good heuristic, until one side actually goes and nominates a Hitler. Then that heuristic failures spectacularly and you end up electing a Hitler.
You misunderstood. I think one side is much worse than the other.
He already did this. 8 years ago. I mean it could have been a lot worse if he were competent but it was already horrible.
And he had a bunch of people telling him no along the way. I don’t know why people aren’t getting this. There. Are. No. Guard. Rails. This. Time.
He already tried a bunch of the shit people are saying he would never do. Now he can do them. Good fucking job.
There are guard rails, but their nature is different.
They can control every single major position in the federal government. Doesn’t matter, because they’re all working at cross purposes. See, fascism gives the appearance of a united front because it rallies around a singular leader, but it’s not. Everyone below that leader is trying to stab each other in the back in order to be in the good graces of the leader.
That alone would tie them in knots of their own creation, but it’s possible to exploit it further. Publicize the consequences far and wide. Getting Trump to yell at his own staff isn’t difficult, and he’ll fire them and replace them with someone even dumber. With Congress being close to split, It’s even possible cabinet positions empty out with no replacements for the rest of the Administration.
See, fascism gives the appearance of a united front because it rallies around a singular leader, but it’s not. Everyone below that leader is trying to stab each other in the back in order to be in the good graces of the leader.
That Nazis were actually very incompetent at governing. It didn’t stop them from committing the Holocaust.
Yes, that’s true. But their system is not our system. We have opportunities to exploit. History does not have to repeat itself.
We bail out all the farmers as we’ve always done.
Well. The chips are down. Your move Generals.
For what it’s worth I think there’s going to be a ton of pushback. To the point where using the military for this becomes infeasible.
They already planning court marshal and putting military leaders on trail for their roll in Afghanistan. Which is all a cover for Trump to remove the generals and install only loyal members to the military who will do trump bidding.
Generals aren’t selected by him personally though. Not unless congress completely folds to him. Remember one Senator holding up all of the promotions? That actually frees up military leadership to appoint replacements themselves. Within reason of course, they aren’t putting a private in charge of a brigade. But it does mean that with the tiniest bit of cover from Congress an officer corp loyal to the Constitution can block Trump’s agenda and make any purge take literal years to bear fruit. Not to complete it mind you, that will take even longer, just to cobble together enough of a chain of command to get a unit to actually deploy domestically.
That said the military are masters of malicious compliance. There’s a really big chance that resistance in the ranks looks like the generals ordering their troops out of the barracks but not taking any weapons because that would violate Posse Comitatus. Then fulfilling Trump’s orders by politely asking anyone they see for their papers. They wouldn’t arrest, detain, or chase anyone though, because that would be law enforcement and violate Posse Comitatus. They would of course studiously maintain an armed QRF on base just in case anyone finds the invasion of enemy aliens Trump is going to declare an emergency over. You might even see them get used against Cartels at the border in an attempt to appease Trump without clearly violating Posse Comitatus.
I do acknowledge it’s entirely possible the generals fold and put the onus on the lower ranks to ignore illegal orders. Which would destroy the military much faster as enlistments drop through the floor, stop loss is engaged, and desertion skyrockets.
I sure hope we don’t need military readiness in the near future…oh…wait …
Yeah if Trump actually follows through on this the US military is going to take decades to recover. But that’s the point. Both for daddy Putin, and American owners of Private Military Companies. They’ve been trying to privatize the grunts since 1990.
Hmm, it’s almost like some third party have had an interest in destabilizing all structures of power in the US 🤔
Every single bad thing about this country, from now on, will be prepended with “Biden”
It shall be law.
I’m not actually sure if I’m joking.
It was weird to watch donvict try to make that a thing in near real time, with “Bidenflation” and “Bigration” or some such shit. This stuff works on the clapping seals that make up his base, though.
Obama? Thanks.
Males? Buttery.
Biden? Did that.
As a Bi-man, a bigration sounds great! Would be great to have more bis around. Mono-sexuals are just weird, imo.
Right. Let’s not blame Trump or the electorate that put him in power.
Saw this one coming. He’ll do the same to justify ending elections.
100% this is a trial for emergency actions to end elections.
