My personal favorite response to that question is “a person who covers their drink when you enter the room”
I’m stealing both of these.
Also trying to workshop::
Oh they don’t have them on your planet?
I like it, but that’s like a 1960s sitcom tier insult. It’s too cute to infuriate.
They have 1960s sitcom mentality. Wouldn’t hurt to give it a try.
how about, “a person who doesn’t want to have sex with you.”
That doesn’t work. I’m sure plenty of queer men would be too disgusted by them to want to have sex with them either.
What about ‘I’ll ask your mom what she thinks when I see her tonight’?
Better: “I’ll ask your dad what she thinks when I see her tonight.”
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Thank you flyingSquid. Perfect.
Puerile, but it’s well catered to the audience.
“Someone who chooses the bear over you.”
I like “Well, I’m a straight male, so anything that turns me on is a woman, ma’am.”
Name totally checks out.
Ooooh, that’s so subtle and brilliant, they’ll be destroyed for life! Added bonus is it zings for all the alphabet.
Seems like: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sealioning
They’re not honestly curiously asking anything.
They tried to do a gotcha. Badly. And got gotcha’ed for it.
One question can’t be “sealioning”. Sure they aren’t curiously looking for an answer, but that’s not what sealioning is. Click your own link.
I saw a further video of them doing this type of thing before.
No need to be a douchebag.
You said what they’re doing seems like sealioning. Not sure how any of us are supposed to infer that you’re not talking about the subject content you’re commenting on.
I affirmed the rest of your opinion other than the trendy label you then put on it. Not sure why that makes me a douchebag, but then with me not being American there might be subtleties to the term that I’m not aware of like “calmly suggests you might be misusing a term”.
They called you a douchebag because your response was snippy and rude. “Click your own link” sounds condescending and arrogant.
You’re probably right. I can see how someone who sees being corrected as hurtful choosing to interpret a simple request that way, I suppose.
I saw this clip. It was amazing the way that kid just dismisses Charlie Kirk with his response and how he just walked away.
Kirk’s face was in shock, cuz he got owned so bad. Mofo couldn’t think of anything smart to say except something from another right wing grifter. 🤦
The right wing really capitalized on the left’s good faith approach, for a very long time. Now that younger people that grew up on the internet are a much larger component of the left’s base, they don’t seem to know how to “own us” anymore. We’re used to this sea lioning bullshit, and won’t put up with it.
Thank you for the context. I never know what the youtube bigots look like.
The craziest thing to me was watching that encounter and then seeing Kirk come away thinking he looked good
He did get owned - but just to put things in perspective, conservatives who saw the video think he owned the kid, saying the ‘kid didn’t know what to say and so just walked away’.
These guys are so deep into their fantasies that they don’t see things the way sensible people do. At all. It’s important to keep in mind when talking to them that they are living in a totally different world.
is this a valid response?
Nah. There are plenty of women who do not make my dick hard. To paraphrase Richard Pryor, I wouldn’t fuck Melania Trump with your dick.
I have no idea why anyone wanted to see her naked. Bleah.
She used to be much more attractive. Look up the picture of her and Donald with Jeffrey Epstein and Ghislaine Maxwell and you can see it.
I’ve seen them. Bleah.
Only if you’re a himbo on the level of Johnny Bravo.
I can only dream of that.
The ftm equivalent is “What is a man?” And the proper response is “A miserable little pile of secrets”.
But enough talk… Have at you!
Alternative responses:
- “Yeah, it makes sense that you wouldn’t know.”
- “A human. Did you seriously not know that?”
- “Are you coming on to me?”
Are you coming on to me?”
I’ve actually used “I’m flattered, but I’m not into guys, sorry.” and when immediately he got pissy and insisted he isn’t gay and wasn’t asking me out, “It’s okay, you don’t have to hide who you are, I’m simply not interested.” and at that point my patience and certainty they wouldnt try to deck me were out the door, along with myself.
A musical theater performance was probably not the best place for the guy to be attempting to ragebait.
10/10 responses, I’d add in “If you have to ask, maybe you should get out more” which I guess is similar to “Makes sense you wouldn’t know”
Your first option is best. Insulting comeback that isn’t open-ended. It ends it so you can move on. The other options are asking for a response, including the OP one.
You could always go jeopardy style of “what is someone who doesn’t want to sleep with you”
Is the answer not “A miserable little pile of secrets”?
Then men are no different.
I’d say “A slightly less miserable pile of secrets because they are generally more in tune with their emotions” but that doesn’t exactly roll off the tongue
I believe that would in fact be a man.
But enough talk. Have at you!
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Personally I think the “woke” definition of a woman (if there even is one) is much more straightforward than the alternative. This idea that the left “can’t define a woman” is absurd projection - the very people who ask this question are the ones who can’t define it without having to make 100s of exceptions.
yep “someone who identifies as a woman” doesn’t need to have caveats. every biological argument has to have many.
Im trans, but this only works if you never rule out outliers, which is something a scientific term like female and its counterpart should be doing. There is a normal or default or whatever word youd prefer
first of all we’re not talking about science so it’s not really relevant, but…what do you even mean scientific terms should be ruling out outliers? if we do that we have faulty data and harmful medicine.
Because that’s the standard procedure for collecting experimental data and defining terms? Because the things that cause those outliers are usually influenced by things other than the thing being defined/observed
i don’t follow at all
The standard human body that biology supposes exists, does not exist.
The perfect human cadaver does not exist, there’s no cadaver that follows the models in books. All cadavers have weird shaped organs, in kinda weird spots, not symmetrical, little tumors and tendon issues and muscle issues etc. Same for their neurochemicals including hormones (and fyi people can get adrenal autoimmune disease later in life that can cause changes in sex features). Same for genes. Like especially genetically, we know everyone has different genes because that’s how DNA tests work in forensics.
No one is the standard and this is why many medical studies are super shitty and our medicine is so nonspecific. That’s why firstline treatment for depression is SSRIs even though they only have a 30% efficacy.
So the idea that “control” groups in medical studies are really made up of some kind of standard body is pure nonsense, unfortunately. They do not even investigate for hormones or other diseases really during these medical studies. If the drug itself will impact sex hormones, the study will describe what tests they ran and will investigate then, but if it’s a depression drug or heart drug etc, they just go off whatever the patient thinks. Genuinely. Our studies are so primitive.
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Yes. But imagine the screaming if they hadn’t been allowed in.
Okay. I imagined it. It gave me happiness. What next?
Covertly donating to Democratic party by buying the merch?
Language is an imperfect medium with inherent limitations, intended to convey thoughts from the mind of one person to another. Thus, context is critical. The tragedy of humans not being telepathic.
A large portion of this argument is between two factions trying to have a complex discussion regarding at least four different things using only two words; male and female. The discussion however expands to biology, stereotypes, gender norms, rights, etc.
To me, everyone arguing is a moron for trying to have a discussion without first agreeing on axioms and vocabulary. Male and female are not enough words for a discussion involving this many variables.
It’s like, hey, please reconcile general relativity, quantum mechanics, and metaphysics using only X and Y. It just screams absurdity.
You might want to look at Wittgenstein.
In his early work he went hard on this approach, and insisted that “hey philosophy is dumb”, just agree on the definitions and then chase through the implications.
In his later work he realised that this is impossible. Words have contextual meaning that is revealed by their usage and you can’t nail down full and complete definitions in advance.
What you’re talking about absolutely can and will never work. We have tried it and seen it fail.
The general point is that the “what is a woman” question is still word games rather than an honest attempt at finding truth and understanding
Yes exactly. “What is a chair?” These semantic boundaries may seem annoying and pedantic to explore at first, but can be pretty interesting once examined especially at a neurolinguistic level.
Yeah, let’s spend the next 3 days hashing out all our vocabulary so we could have an argument…
I get the idea and I agree that people who won’t come to the same understanding of words and concepts cannot have a discussion about a topic that uses those words and concepts. But if you think anyone is going to sit down and be “First we must get our axioms and vocabularies in sync” you’re dreaming.
A practical approach is to assume people have roughly the same understanding of vocabulary so you could start the discussion. When discrepancies present themselves that’s when you shift to finding a common understanding of axioms, concepts, words or whatever you want to call them. Morons are the people who refuse compromise on anything they believe in (including axioms and vocabulary).
It is safe to assume that many people would not agree on definitions at the start. So your strategy sounds good, but it’s unrealistic in many circumstances.
Also, one faction is typically trying to avoid a complex discussion. They want to pretend life is simpler than it is.
It isn’t for me to define, and there are more important things in life to focus on.
I used to think 2 x chromosomes. Clearly I was wrong.
What if they have trisomy or monosomy?
What if they have a mutation and they don’t have the correct genes in their X and Y Chromosomes?
What if gender (a social construct) and biological sex aren’t actually the same thing?
What about just let people be because it’s none of your goddamned business how they want to express themselves, who they love, and why?
Did you skip the second and third words and entire second sentence of that comment, or what?
Whether a person has an XX chromosome or XY has absolutely no bearing on their body form.
Only a fool would gamble that just because a person looks like a woman that wt:thon is probably is XX, or just because a person looks like a man that thon probably is XY,
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A “woman” is a label. It’s a social construct.
As such, while you and I may have some idea of what we think a woman is, it’s not really something that can be given a concrete definition the way these people seem to think it needs.
The meta of gender is simply the way we see eachother and not something that can be measured. It’s felt.
It’s a lot like trying to build a concrete definition for intelligence. What is intelligence? How can it be measured? IQ tests are one way, but they’re pretty much universally regarded as inaccurate at best.
Whatever intelligence is, these rage baiters don’t have it.
I agree. the only thing that we can say scientifically is that someone has a specific amount of traits we have associated with the social label ‘woman’. These traits are biologically speaking primarily related to reproduction and which role one would be able to fulfill the most effectively. Which does leave room for being able to fulfill both reproductive roles in some way or another.
Our social needs to mark ourselves and others as one of the two is deeply ingrained, but as it’s such a grey area under the hood it would make sense to have a more fluid relationship with the topic.
Gender helps when the surgeon cuts into the abdomen and wants better than 50/50 odds on what to expect on the other side.
One would expect the surgeon to have actually done their Pre-op. If they don’t know what to expect when cutting into someone, they shouldn’t be.
Reminds me of this https://knowyourmeme.com/memes/master-debater-both-guy
“master debator” kind of sounds like masturbater
A cunning linguist once said
Here is the answer to that question:
Until recently, a woman was defined as someone who was born a biological female.
Now, as definitions change, a woman is defined as a person who identifies with the role of the previous definition of woman.
Language is descriptive, not prescriptive.
That’s not what the definition has changed to. Women can be women without identifying with that traditional role. A woman is someone who identifies as a woman. I am a woman, and I certainly don’t identify with the role of a traditional woman.
I’d quibble slightly and argue that there’s a strong case that gender is also performative so if society generally deems you a woman, you’re also a woman.
External perception should not be a qualifier of gender. Passing shouldn’t be required for a trans person to be a member of their gender, much as a feminine presenting man is still a man and a masculine presenting woman is still a woman, unless they say otherwise. Because it’s all made up anyways, we can allow the definition to be as flexible as gender itself is.
But yes, gender is often performative, but rather than defining that in the terms of the audience, define it in terms of the cast.
Without external validation I’m not sure we can have gender.
Don’t get me wrong here btw, I’m not conservative on this issue, I’m a gender abolitionist.
As a trans person this strikes me as not really understanding what transness fully is? Like I know there are non-binary folk who more or less feel that they are beyond gender and feel like they have no internal gender compass - but I can’t help but wonder if that is actually part of the cis experience as the more I talk to cis people the more I think the majority of cis people actually don’t have a an internal gender. To them it is very much performative as they don’t really have any internal reward system.
Gender to a lot of cis people seems a nebulous thing that they may feel attached to the same way they might be a sort of arbitrary team. They might feel praised for performing it “correctly” but that has almost nothing in common with actual gender euphoria. Ask what they think it would be like swapping bodies with a member of the opposite sex and they are usually more concerned with practically or on whether or not they are attractive in their new form. Most binary trans people are less concerned with being attractive as they are with seemlessly passing. It would be better to be an ugly but undeniable flawlessly recognizable member of their gender than the most attractive specimen of their birth sex. Sometimes that is because it is a matter of safety and security because passing means avoiding harassment but moreover it is because we do not care to appease our casual external viewer. The exact comfort is ours to benefit when we are alone because our drives were never externally driven.
Speaking as one who experiences it gender euphoria makes literary no logical sense. It operates entirely outside of logic and is entirely internal. It often comes mixed with guilt because a lot of the time the social conditioning that we should not like the things we do is at war with the truth that we have zero control about how we actually feel. The theory of gender performativity is incomplete and describes a fluidity - an almost liquid nature of internal gender. But gender can also be entirely and mandatorily rigid, enforced by internal triggers which slap and stroke by turns entirely independent of society. It is this rigidity rather than it’s liquidity that most cis people seem to have a hard time grasping. Some definitely recognize it and have that same rigidity but it seems comparatively rare.
Being trans I recognize that my euphorias and dysphorias are not based out of performance. Performance is something I utilize as a tool to communicate people to not bring attention to the things that pain me and to make me feel comfortable. The company of people do supply a sort of reflective quality but that is just one way to be conscious of my physical body. If you call me by a pronoun set that references the physical things I hate about my physical experience of living it brings my attention onto those things. I could be naked and alone on a deserted island and the way I feel about my body would be the same. The things which make me feel generally bad are things like the way the weight of my body is distributed and my muscular structures which I can be aware of every time I need to move in a way more physically demanding than sitting or walking. I can hear my own voice and feel it insufficient and ghastly. I can see in any reflection the features of my face or shillohette. These things don’t go away when I am alone, in fact oftentimes being alone with them offers less distraction from them.
Abolishing gender often is counter to a lot of the desires of trans people because it holds a language we can adapt to and profit from. Removing the limitations of toxic forms of masculinity and feminity is a universally good thing but removing the distinction entirely undercuts the actual joy to be revelled in embracing and speaking that cultural language.
I respectfully disagree.
To me the abolition of gender would be amazingly freeing.
It wouldn’t matter if I chose to wear a dress to work or a suit.
It wouldn’t matter if I chose the pink shirt over the blue shirt.
It wouldn’t matter if I wore makeup and nail polish and be a construction worker.
Yes, I could do all of those things right now, nothing stops me rather than the feeling of being judged by others, hence the ‘external validation’ of gender.
None of those things above are inherently feminine or masculine but a lot of us are taught that they are and judge others on those ‘rules’.
For me, it is hard to fathom how someone who experiences so much suffering from gender dysphoria can then reenforce that same gender expression in society. To me, I’d just rather kids growing up who wear whatever clothes and behave how ever they want to (within reason).
If all people didn’t perceive certain clothes, behaviours and ideas as feminine or masculine then people would just be people.
I won’t hope to imagine your own internal thoughts but I am curious, if you weren’t taught what a ‘woman’ is and what a ‘man’ is do you still think you would have experienced gender dysmorphia?
Also, as far as I know body dysmorphia is different to gender dysmorphia. I.e. I can identify as a man but still want to keep my vagina.
I’m also not claiming you wouldn’t have still had body dysmorphia even if gender was abolished.
In a philosophical sense of the strict definition, you’re correct. I see no good reason to use our language like that though, as it would inevitably hurt trans people. I choose to instead use gender as an identifier assigned by each individual, as it’s our colloquial definition and less harmful to trans people. In my opinion, if someone identifies as a woman, she is a woman, regardless of external perception.
And yes, I also agree that gender would be better abolished and relegated to a vibes-based, self-identified label for people that want it.
A woman is someone who identifies as a woman.
This is a recursive statement which gets us nowhere. We need to establish that there is some kind of basis, which is the previous definition.
Whether or not the statement is recursive, it is a basis. I see no valid reason to define it more rigorously. I identify as a woman, therefore I am. I identify as bisexual, therefore I am. Those are labels for nebulous social constructs, and don’t need to be rigorous definitions. Any basis beyond “because I say so” would be inherently exclusionary. The entire debate over what defines a woman or a man is a pointless affair which harms transgender people and gender nonconforming cisgender people alike. I believe we should be abolishing gender, not trying to establish a basis for what makes someone woman or man enough. It’s all made up.
My main point being: Gender is a social construct, and doesn’t fit the complex reality of lived human experience. Let people define their gender in their own terms, for those that desire a label, and otherwise abolish it.
You’ve said a lot which I’m already on board with, and mostly besides the point.
People can define their genders however they want, but a person who identifies as a woman without doing anything else to project that identity is virtually nobody’s conception of a woman is.
That’s not true, what you’re advocating for is gender gatekeeping and it’s the same forced gender performance Republicans demand or else they’ll examine your genitals before you use the bathroom.
At the end of the day, it isn’t up to us to define or understand gender for anyone else. It’s up to us to know and respect their pronouns. We don’t get to define what being a woman is for everyone.
It’s like the myth of sisyphus - what we bring to the journey is what defines that journey, and maybe defines us to some extent. Whether that’s joy, singing, boredom, anger, all of the above, etc. What we bring to womanhood, whether thats traditional or not, is up to us and how we interpret it.
You’re being hyperbolic. I’m not discussing pronouns, and I’ve stated elsewhere that I have no problems addressing people how they’d like to be.
Why do we need to establish a basis if it’s all made up anyway? For what purpose?
Because we use words to identify things.
Okay, so then why do we have a word for woman? What is the intention of that category? Is it really necessary to define anyway? If not, why does it matter what a woman is except its what she calls herself?
We have a word for woman because it is a useful descriptor. The intention of the category is to presuppose useful information about a person. In some situations it is necessary to define. No need to answer the if not question.
presuppose useful information about a person
Yes, and in your opinion, what specifically is that information?
I don’t think you mean it’s a recursive statement, are you trying to say it’s a circular definition? If we instead changed the statement to “A woman is any person who identifies as such,” thus only using the word ‘woman’ once, does this fix your criticism of this definition? Does this mean you no longer need an arbitrary basis to define women?
It’s an acceptable definition. A circular definition would be “A woman is a woman.” Instead, she’s defining a woman as someone who identifies as a woman. That’s not circular. You just don’t like it for whatever reason (you have yet to define what a woman is yourself despite thinking a different basis can be established).
If we change the definition to “a woman is any person who identifies as such”, nothing changes for me.
A circular argument involves multiple steps and loops back to the start. For example “God is infallible > the Bible says so > the bible is written by God > God is infallible”
What I believe is this:
If the definition of a woman is “a person who identifies as a woman”, then what that means is "a woman who is a person who identifies as a woman (a person who identifies as a woman (a person who identifies as a woman …)))
So I feel right to call it a recursive linguistic issue.
It’s not recursive, did you read the example I linked? It’s more like this:
A person has gone bankrupt when they declare bankruptcy.
This definition is specifically highlighting the condition of declaration being necessary to achieve the word being defined, and who is doing it. The declaration is what makes it existant.
Or
Miss USA is the person who is awarded the Miss USA title by judges.
Again here hilighting that it’s an awarded position and who is awarding it.
If you think it can be more specific, go ahead, but you have been unable to give me any kind of satisfactory definition for woman yourself.
A doctor is anyone who is declared a doctor by an educational institution.
Hilights declaration and who is doing it.
A woman is anyone who identifies themselves as a woman.
Hilighting that identifying yourself is the key piece of this definition. A doctor isn’t anyone who calls themselves a doctor, right? Not just anyone can be a doctor just because they declare it. But indeed anyone can become a woman and that the entire point of the emphasis of this definition.
This isn’t a programming class, dude.
I mean, are you worried about definitions that are circular because A depends on B depends on C depends on A? No, you’re not. No one has ever complained about this.
People are complaining about it, it’s the whole point of this post. If saying “a woman is someone who identifies as a woman” was a sufficient, then we wouldn’t be talking about this.
It is sufficient.
It’s not recursive.
No one complains about wider circles: A -> B -> C -> A.
This is a made up problem.
I don’t accept the assertion that your definition isn’t recursive.
This is like someone who says they believe in God, because their definition of God is ‘The Universe’
That’s cool, define God however you want. But it’s not a very helpful definition when the majority of people are using that word in a very different way.
Remember, language is descriptive, not prescriptive.
Let’s try an experiment, hm.
“I am not a woman.”
Using the definition “a woman is someone who identifies as a woman,” would you call me a woman.
There’s no real issue with recursive (self referential) arguments in philosophy or math. An example being the Fibonacci Sequence. I’m going to assume your criticism for this is that you, like many conservatives, think this definition is circular.
The following definition is not circular:
A woman is somebody who says they are a woman.
This definition proposes a test, “do they say they are a woman?”, to determine if somebody is a woman (according to the given definition). This test can be performed without needing to circularly apply the definition of the term “woman” ─ because we don’t need a definition of “woman” to know whether or not somebody says they are a woman.
You may argue it is not a useful definition, because it does not depend on what the person who says “I am a woman” means by the word “woman”, only that they use that word to describe themselves. Others will disagree. But the definition itself is not circular.
Perhaps it will help to make an analogy with a similar non-circular definition which was used historically, though is no longer used in modern times, but the definition was not contentious and I am not aware of anybody seriously arguing that the definition was invalid due to circularity.
Before marriages had legal status in modern law, it used to be that a husband and wife became married in a ceremony, in which a religious leader declared “I now pronounce you husband and wife”. This pronouncement itself used to be what made two people husband and wife, so if two people had not been married in such a ceremony where such a pronouncement was made, they would not be husband and wife.
So the definition of “husband” and “wife” included that the husband and wife had been pronounced as such, by the power vested in whoever officiated wedding ceremonies. (There were other aspects to the definition as well, but this criterion was required.) Does this mean that until modern times, marriages were meaningless, because being a “husband” or “wife” depended on a pronouncement being made, where the pronouncement itself necessarily included those terms which were defined by the pronouncement?
Of course not. This definition is likewise not circular, because we can apply the definition to determine if two people are husband and wife ─ i.e. has such a pronouncement been made by someone qualified to make it? ─ without having to more deeply investigate the meaning of the words in that pronouncement. The fact of the pronouncement being made, regardless of its meaning, is enough to satisfy the definition.
“Biological female” has always been a construct, not a social construct but a scientific one.
Little known fact is that “gender” was adopted initially into parlance to try and rope off a certain arbitrary binary definition of sex before it was applied to social category. Biologically speaking “man” and “woman” was being shown to be way more vibes based than originally thought. An individuals chromosomes, hormonal balance, reproductive capability, outwardly visible genetalia and secondary sex characteristics were way more variable than a strict binary to the point where sex really was being looked at as more of spectrum. In a last ditch effort to preserve the idea of a sex binary the idea of a sort of model man and woman was derived as “gender” where everyone who didn’t fit neatly into those arbitrary boxes was looked at as essentially a deviation from the norm instead of basically just being normal in and of themselves. Basically 2 out of every hundred people are born with some sort of intersex trait and there are likely more since a lot of people learn they have some sort of intersex trait by accident. Like there are “biological” men out there who have uteruses or overies just floating amongst their other organs completely undiscovered until they get some kind of medical imaging done that realizes that it’s not just a benign tumour or a wonky bit of intestine.
When people say the the definition is a wobbly gray area they fully include the biological component. Even if you are talking about cis people there is no all encompassing biological archetype which doesn’t exclude some cis women.
identifies with the role of the previous definition of woman.
So what is the present definition of a woman?
A person who identifies with the role of someone who is historically a biological female
What about biological females in history who identified as, or at least presented as, male?
I suppose it really depends on the culture of the time. But if we’re talking about recent western perceptions, then the average person probably wouldn’t accept that gender and sex are different.
wouldn’t accept that gender and sex are different
because in most cases it isn’t.
Right.
