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cross-posted from: https://lemmy.world/post/18420202
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Why is an image of someone sharpening a kitchen knife called “obscure and outdated”? Is everyone out there just using shitty dull knives now? Lol
I knew someone who would replace their knives every year or two after they were dangerously dull. He called me a sucker for buying a nicer set, and it never occurred to him that they could be sharpened and reused.
It’s getting bad out here.
Every year or two??? That’s just when a new knife is finally getting broken in lol I’ve got knives my parents bought before I was born that I still use!
We’re talking real low grade, picked up at walmart knives. Unlikely they would last like that anyway, but absolutely refused to spend more than like $10 on a chef knife because they were treated as disposable.
If they won’t even pay more than $10 then whatever they bought probably already needed sharpening straight out of the box lol
Even the cheapest knife is still going to last many, many years of normal use. Most of my knifes are super cheap actually. But they are super sharp, so who cares? Just sharpened then a few days ago (has been a few months). Only takes like a minute per knife with my “work sharp” to get them just about razor sharp.
Aren’t those still made from steel? There should be nothing preventing you(r friend) from sharpening them.
It’s getting bad out here.
You haven’t seen anything yet. If you have teacher friends, ask them how the new generation is doing 💀 they haven’t learned almost anything since COVID started and have virtually no social skills on top of it… I’m legit scared for the future.
The whole COVID made the kids dumb is just the newest excuse in a long line. Before that it were phones, computers, calculators and probably a lot more. My kids are from the new generation, and they’re doing just fine.
So just like every generation before us then…? Socrates 400 BC:
The children now love luxury; they have bad manners, contempt for authority; they show disrespect for elders and love chatter in place of exercise. Children are now tyrants, not the servants of their households. They no longer rise when elders enter the room. They contradict their parents, chatter before company, gobble up dainties at the table, cross their legs, and tyrannize their teachers.
CHILDREN CROSSED THEIR LEGS!!!1!!!11!!! what an abomination!
?
can u seriously believe those shits?!
As the older “uncle” of the family, I get called to handle a lot of things, like unjamming a garbage disposal (you stick a broom handle in and push until it moves again) to changing a car tire (the instructions are LITERALLY printed on the body of the car) to very basic things like removing insects and spiders from the houses of adult families, to fixing electrical problems (breakers tripping.) And of course, fixing computers… miles and miles of fixing computers. Usually just installed programs that need to be removed or setup that needs to be completed, the age of viruses seem to be slowing but they still call at odd hours asking for help to remove a “virus” when it’s just an app on borderless window mode.
I never thought of any of this as “man skills” I always thought this was just shit you had to do as an adult. I was prepared for helping kids just getting started, not grown-ass men and women with arms and legs and presumably careers with responsibilities.
I would say I’m surprised people can even wipe their own ass anymore but I have read some posts about people having to deal with boyfriends who think touching their own butt is “gay” so really I am not surprised by anything anymore. Is it any wonder why politics is so incredibly stupid? It’s a reflection of larger society.
For me, if it doesn’t come with a sharpener build into the sheath, it’s not good enough quality anyway (I do not generally buy expensive knives). I’ve moved a dozen times over a decade and lost pieces of so many silverware sets they’re disposable to me. Never had a knife long enough to NEED to resharpen it. Got a few nicer ones now though so maybe that will change.
I know people who just throw them out and buy new knives when they dull, so there’s also that 😔
Seriously? Just throwing out practically brand new knives is a thing now? Decent knives will last for decades if you sharpen them a few times a year lol
Oh no, they’ll use crappy blunt knives for a few years.
And they’ll keep them in a drawer and cut on plates and glass “cutting boards.”
I just realized why my pizza cutters never last long…
Ugh. I went through that for years with my sister. I finally got together with my brother in law and we surreptitiously threw away all the glass cutting boards after I was getting really tired of hearing her constantly bitching about all her knives being “crap.” This was such a tooth pulling exercise because she absolutely would not allow anyone to put two and two together for her. In her mind, all the knives constantly being dull was everyone else’s fault.
Somehow I simultaneously “don’t know what I’m talking about,” but I’m also specifically asked to bring my entire kit every time I visit so I can sharpen every piece of cutlery in the house. Since apparently I’m the only one who can do it properly. Hmm.
I had a roommate like that once! She insisted on using a glass cutting board and would never get rid of the damned thing… Apparently she couldn’t chop onions without having a copy of a Van Gogh painting underneath them lol
we have one that is clear, it only gets used for raw chicken basically. it’s much easier to sanitize after. i wonder if theres a good alternative for that use case?
Apparently. I complemented them on their knives and they said they just got them cause their old ones were getting dull.
Told them to let me know next time, and I’d take them. I may be a bad friend as I did not disclose that knives could be sharpened lol.
Offer to take them, and then go pick them up with your sharpener. Sharpen them there. Test their sharpness. Then take the knives. Obviously don’t be smarmy about it, but friends don’t let friends throw money down the garbage disposal. I bet a lot of people would genuinely appreciate learning how to save some cash on knives. Even shitty Walmart kitchen knives are expensive enough to make a $50 work sharp bench stone worthwhile
Doesn’t even need to be that nice. A $10 knife sharpener that you can buy at Walmart ten steps from the knives is more than enough for anyone who doesn’t particularly care.
It’s not gonna do a great job, but it’ll keep the knife sharp enough until it’s dinged, chipped or worn away.For sure. I’m just speaking from my experience that 1 good knife sharpener is the very best dollar to performance ratio purchase you will ever make and the work sharp bench stone is priced low enough to be, potentially, both the first and last knife sharpener someone ever buys. And man… some shitty walmart knives are just the things to learn how to use it with. They’re made of enough real steel that they won’t flex like the crap you get at the grocery store, but they’re also crappy enough that they won’t retain an edge for very long and you’ll get some practice in with them. And a set of walmart knives is about $30 meaning if someone is rebuying walmart kitchen knives once a year, after 3 years they will have saved money (and material waste), not to mention some sickos out there are going to enjoy it. I don’t enjoy sharpening knives, but I know of people who do actually get satisfaction from it.
But yes. If it’s between buying bad knives every year, or buying bad knives and a bad sharpener and getting by for 2 years, the bad knives and the bad sharpener WILL save you money.
I would absolutely take their old knives lol next time they come to your house make sure to use them to prepare a meal
Not everyone knows about Vimes’ Boots Theory:
The reason that the rich were so rich, Vimes reasoned, was because they managed to spend less money. Take boots, for example. … A really good pair of leather boots cost fifty dollars. But an affordable pair of boots, which were sort of OK for a season or two and then leaked like hell when the cardboard gave out, cost about ten dollars. … But the thing was that good boots lasted for years and years. A man who could afford fifty dollars had a pair of boots that’d still be keeping his feet dry in ten years’ time, while a poor man who could only afford cheap boots would have spent a hundred dollars on boots in the same time and would still have wet feet.
Vimes was always my favorite Discworld character lol
Good knives will last multiple generations.
…maybe…
Well, if you don’t have time or don’t want to learn about knife sharpening my advice is to get a cheap pull through sharpener for your kitchen knives. They’re super easy to use and will add years to the usefulness of your knives. It doesn’t work as well as doing a full sharpening, but it will get them cutting well again at least!
Are these the ones with the angled V shaped thingy? I have one where you put the knife through three different coarseness levels and it works good enough for me. I’m sure I’d fuck the blade up with real ones.
Yes that is it! They work great for any standard kitchen knife, but you wouldn’t want to use them on any kind of fancy blades with a special grind angle or anything
They usually look something like this:
Yes! It’s almost exactly like that. I only use it to sharpen a couple of “nicer” kitchen knives I use for cooking, we don’t even bother with butter knives or other ones, and the cooking ones are decent (German) but nothing crazy either.
Those sharpeners fuck your knives up after a while. https://youtu.be/0uy5NrLEZ4g so don’t use them on expensive knives.
I know, right? Sharpening things like knives and scissors is what I consider to be a basic maintenance skill. You don’t even need to go all out on it. Just owning a basic Spyderco Sharpmaker or WorkSharp Precision Adjust will let you sharpen a lot of things.
It’s also a given that many knives that you buy simply aren’t as sharp from the factory as they can and SHOULD be. A little effort can get you a lot better cutting performance.
I suppose the reason behind it is also that your average person thinks that ‘sharp knives are dangerous’ when in reality it’s dull knives that cause the most issues. When a supermarket chain here sold knives, people complained that the knives were too sharp! Can you imagine?
I would just use dull knives if not for the people in my life who sharpen them. The sound of knife-sharpening burrows into my brain and shuts off all rational thought. It’s like tinfoil on teeth for me and I cannot deal with it.
Luckily, my husband enjoys it, so he just does it when I’m not home.
Sharpening and caring for your knives is hardly an outdated skill you’ll never use. If you’re not regularly sharpening your knives, you’re doing yourself a major disservice.
My best friend buys a new chefs knife every month at the dollar store
Ihe was throwing them away, but now he gives them to me. I’ve shown him how sharp I can get them and how long they last with the edge I put on them, but he does not want to learn or just give them to me to sharpen every few months.
I now sell his sharpened throw aways to friends and family for 5 bucks a pop.
If y’all still out there shaving with cartridge razors you’re wasting so much money on getting a shittier shave.
But, yeah, “Art of Manliness” and their ilk do try to capitalize on a call to return to old fashion things by selling jazzed up overpriced safety razors and brushes.
You don’t need fancy shit to get a better cheaper shave.
i still use the same no frills safety razor handle i got from target ~2015. and the 100 pack of astra blades i got for $10 lasted until just recently
can’t believe how much money i blew on bullshit gillette crap for so long
Yup! Astra blades are less than 10¢ each if you buy a 100 pack
You can get really good vintage razors off eBay for next to nothing. If you don’t wanna gamble on that, you can get a stainless steal 3 piece razor for a little over $15. Even the Wilkinson sword will save you money vs a cartridge razor while also being a shitty, not very durable, de razor
Until the TSA lifts restrictions on blades, cartridge razors will continue to be a necessary evil in my kit. However, there are so many better options for your home, as you say. The shown safety razor style is perfectly fine, and so much less expensive, even if you don’t go all in with a solid soap and brush, and just use a normal shave cream like Creamo.
Its inclusion here is absurd. Cartridge shavers are shitty for the environment, and shitty for your wallet; they’re not less manly, they’re just a less smart choice.
Wait, TSA throws a fit over razor blades in checked baggage? I can understand they deny it in carry-on but down in the hold?
No. Checked is OK, but most of my trips are entirely carry-on. I almost never check bags, unless I’m going on vacation. I did, however, once lose a nice pocket knife because I forgot to put it in my checked bag before getting on an early AM return flight, and had to give it to the bin, so I still avoid taking things that could get confiscated if I mispack them during the trip.
I don’t know about you, but my outbound packing is pristine; by the time I’m coming home after a couple of weeks, it’s a toss-up where anything is.
I’m only flying in Europe but have heard stories about the TSA being quite random with it’s rules, so I wouldn’t be too surprised to learn they do not allow them in checked baggage.
And loosing stuff at the security check really sucks.
Lately, my wife’s been doing now international travel than I have, and she reports that foreign airport security for flights to the US are far more strict than domestic flights. For example, TSA in the US is pretty loosey-goosey about the liquids rules - not the amounts, but having everything in ziplock bags that can be closed. I haven’t put my liquids in ziplocks for a domestic flight in years, but foreign security enforcing the TSA checks are anal-retentive about stuff like that.
Part may be because we’ve had pre-check since it first came out, so I may just be seeing only the less strict rules of pre-check, but I suspect the US is just more strict with airport security for incoming, non-domestic flights, and foreign airports are just doing what TSA is demanding, to the letter.
Heathrow, Charles de Gaulle, and MUC’s security are way more lax than any US airport. Where they get strict is when you get to the gates for the US flights and have to go through security - TSA, this time - a second time. The only airport I thought had general security as strict as a US airport was Singapore, and their TSA at-gate security is insane. Dubai, too. Only airport I’ve been in where the entire gate for a flight was enclosed in glass, like a snake terrarium. And god forbid you wanted to go back out for food or something, because you had to go through that TSA checkpoint again. I hate flying through Dubai to get home.
What about electric?
If they work for you, great! I’ve never owned one that shaved anywhere nearly as close as a blade, or that I didn’t have to use twice a day if I wanted to be clean-shaven in the evening. Plus, I don’t particularly find them comfortable, or precise; they’re all a little bit like using fine-grain sandpaper.
But everyone is different, and if you like the shave, you’re fortunate.
For years I carried a AA battery powered one in my glove compartment for emergencies, like when I was in a rush and had to shave on the road. It was an absolutely horrible shaver, but better than the alternative. I only used it a couple of times within ten years, so I stopped doing that.
Now that’s interesting, I’ve gotten guff for flying with a safety razor but I’ve never had it confiscated or been denied entry to the flight.
They’re not allowed in carry-on. I’ve gotten through a check point with a blade on once, but I’ve also been pulled out and asked to verify there’s no blade. It’s low risk because all you lose is some time and you might have to toss a blade. But then I’m left with a useless razor until I can find a pharmacy to buy whatever crappy generic blades they have, which I then have to dial in for aggressiveness, and it’s just way more trouble than it’s worth.
When I was heavy business traveling, it was absolutely not worth it, because I didn’t pad my airport arrival and boarding time by many minutes, and getting pulled out for a check meant I’d have to run for the gate. Plus, I’d have to make time during the trip to find a pharmacy, pay for an Uber to go get blades. Not worth it.
On the much more rare occasion that I an checking a bag, like for a longer trip, sure; I’ll pack a safety razor or shavette, but then I worry about light-fingered TSA inspectors. Anything stolen from your luggage, you’re never getting back. I have a couple of cheap-o safety’s I wouldn’t mind losing, but they’re not my favorite shaves either.
All in all, for traveling, I just take cartridge razors. It’s easier.
I’ve flown with a safety razor many times with a blade installed in it and nobody’s ever seemed to notice or care. I don’t tend to travel with extra blades, though – one will do me for a week or whatever, no problem.
Largely same. Though once flying from Houston International to JFK a TSA agent started saying I couldn’t bring a blade onto an aircraft and she wanted to take the handle itself. I started to protest trying to negotiate her only confiscating the blade when a massive man wearing a 10 gal hat, a mustache that connected to his mutton chops and, most importantly, a big shiny badge said in a broad Texan accent “Now, Missy, how you gonna take a man’s razor? You want him to grow whiskers and folks call him kitty? Go on now, get on your flight!”
The TSA is bizarre.
Hi! I’m wondering what’s wrong with AoM? I always liked that they had really nice vintage (fucking love vintage stuff lol) looking skill booklets that I could use or learn from. I haven’t been there in a loooonnnng time though, so I’m curious if I’ve missed something?
A lot of the shaving gear has a HUUUUGE markup for that vintage look. You can get it way cheaper direct from the manufacturer.
Ah! I understand now. I never bought anything from them. I was just happy to see a “healthy” manly community. Are they still that way at least? It’s unfortunate they markup simple tools though. :/
I have a cheap safety razor I bought maybe 8 years ago. At the same time I spent $15 for a bunch of blades for it that I still haven’t used up yet!
Wicked edge if youre in the us
Can we start making websites/forums devoted to just regular individual wholesome dudes and characterize them as peak masculinity?
peak masculinity /j
chat, is this real?
Yeah
Yeah
Happened right before their debate. Why it went the way it did.
💯% real
When I was a kid my dad would take his morning shit while the door was open and it stank up the hallway not to mention the visual image of it all prior to breakfast. So one day I closed the door from outside and he yelled at me full volume that he wanted the door open so I had to go back and reluctantly open it.
That’s peak masculinity
You may not like it, but this is what peak performance looks like
Practically Ron Swanson?
His masculinity is well documented in the Parks & Recreation documentary series.
I need to sharpen my knives
Wetshaving seems fancy but honestly its the cheapest, fastest and best way to shave, that i have found.
In my experience it’s also the best way to show up at the office with a bloody neckline
You just need to shave with the grains (this may vary a lot from face to face) and you should never slide the blade sideways
I’ve tried many things, but still getting many small wounds. With the grain doesn’t get as close a shave.
Depending on your stubs you may need multiple passes. First with the grain and then across it. The last pass can me against the grain. Usually you’ll have enough foam/lathe for several passes anyway
That said, there is a huge variation og razors and blades. Some of them i almost can’t even look at without getting cut. Some razors have the option to adjust how aggressive they are. Shaving foams also change the experience basically and even you method of whipping up a foam/lathe can make a difference.
Its not as straight forward as it seems but once you find your way it is pretty easy. Take your time with it though. Shaving slowly is still pretty fast often even compared to electric shavers when they dont really take all the stubs
i use safety razors bc they are very inexpensive. also less environmental impact.
my neck has a sensitive spot where if I’m rushing, it will definitely bleed. but if I’m careful and use light pressure and don’t go against the grain it’s fine.
Everyone who shaves, regardless of gender and razor type, should have a styptic pencil. It stops bleeding like magic.
Beyond that, shaving with a safety razor is different because you’re never supposed to apply pressure - idk if that’s something you were doing.
I have a block of aluin, which I think is the same thing? It helps, but it isn’t magic. I’m not applying pressure, but still I get many very small wounds.
Alum blocks are similar but different, it’s worth looking into getting a styptic pencil or at least researching the differences.
Hmmm, what handle are you using? The common suggestion I’ve seen is to get a vintage Gillette tech off of eBay. It’s nigh impossible to cut yourself with one of those, and they’re usually around $10-$15.
The issue isn’t so much that I’m cutting myself, but that I end up with multiple very small wounds, roughly the size of a hair/hairsack. Like my shave is just a little too close?
I have an adjustable handle, Merkur 50C I believe. I set it to the least aggressive setting, and am trying all different brands of blades, but so far there’s little difference.
Ah, sounds like razor bumps maybe? I don’t know too much about them unfortunately. What do you use right now?
It does take a little practice, like anything worth doing. You save a ton of money (disposable razor blades cost pennies) and you aren’t throwing away all of that plastic.
I got my safety razor in 2011. I’m not sure if I’ve spent twenty dollars in blades since. Best investment ever.
I spent $20 on blades in 2018, it was for a pack of 200 and I haven’t even gone through a quarter of them
If you don’t know how to shave properly sure
deleted by creator
Casio sucks now, sadly. The bands especially are abysmal quality.
Depends heavily on the sub-category of Casio. I have a Lineage (Wave Ceptor?), it’s a great watch for pretty much every day.
You can’t tell the time off a normal clock face, got it
Okay, but knife sharpening is not outdated since everyone that cooks needs sharp knives. Bad choice. Shoulda been something like starting fires with wood friction.
Not everyone needs a progressively finer set of 18 whetstones so they can meditate for 2 hours every week as they sharpen. A honing steel and a basic pull through sharpener are adequate for home cooks.
Well, since the meme doesn’t mention anything about even multiple stones, much less 18, that’s just you being weird.
Also, yeah, you can use those two things. Wouldn’t recommend either for a decent quality knife, but they’ll keep things at a bare minimum of usability. Swap them for a ceramic rod and a single 1k whetstone, and you’ve got better results with less wear of the blade over time, just with an initial learning curve.
The only problem with pull throughs is that they fuck up knives with repeated use, pulling off more metal than necessary. Well, that and you don’t want to try any delicate work with a knife that’s been sharpened that way, it just won’t slice finely enough for fancy shit. You’ll be able to get through damn near everything else in the kitchen though.
Seriously, dude, if this is some kind of pet peeve of yours, be aware that nobody gives a shit when your comment is making a mountain out of a place where there wasn’t even a molehill.
And, frankly, you come off as being an absolute asshole in your comment, so there’s that too.
I sharpen my knives with a grit block maybe every 6 months, because I want sharp knives, but was told an angle sharpener would leave me with BBQ skewers.
It’s hardly a “masterful man task”, more like 20 minutes to do a kitchen chore. Like refilling the dishwasher salt. Or cleaning the bin.Yeah, it really doesn’t fit the meme at all.
Since when is sharpening kitchen knives obscure? Have you guys never used a sharp knife before? Are you cutting food with dangerous and dull knives??
I recently got a set of knives that are sharper than I have ever seen, though one is kinda dull. I plan on sharpening it soon, just waiting on getting my wetstones in the mail.
Are you cutting food with dangerous and dull knives??
Probably yes because:
- It was sharp at some point in the past, so I “bookmarked” it in my mind as a “sharp” object, but I always fail to update my “bookmarks”.
- I’m lazy.
I might be lazy, but I’ve only cut myself on dull knives. The stress of using a dull knife when doing prep drives me insane and motivates me to sharpen them
And above all, everything is brown for some reason.
With the exception to the rolex and “10 things she wants to see you wear”, I like the things here.
Yea. I like Casio or Timex, cigars, and the lack of men’s perfume.
So many people are freaking out over the knife sharpening. A) you’re in this picture and you don’t like it B) hand sharpening on a whetstone isn’t necessary for home cooks. Other tools will get you to adequate with a lot less effort, both in learning and using the tools.
It’s ok to not optimize everything in your life. It’s ok to put your knives in the dishwasher. It’s ok to shave with an electric. It’s ok to not look like or dress like how these sites say you should.
Edit: jeeze, apparently it’s not ok so much so that it’s ok to imply violence is acceptable against people who put their knives in the dishwasher. I’m pretty grossed out by this interaction and at the people that insist their way of doing something is better, easier, whatever, when I’ve already said no thanks. Ew.
Whetstones require less effort than most commercial sharpening systems, and provide a better edge and more flexibility. But the point isn’t that you need to use a whetstone, it’s that you should be sharpening your knives.
It’s ok to put your knives in the dishwasher.
Oh good lord! Somebody hold me back!
Caught one! Lol.
I actually don’t use a whetstone any more because I found a couple of systems that work better for me, and because my main pocketknife uses steel that is too hard to be effectively sharpened with a whetstone. But they’re still very effective sharpening solutions for most knives. I use this cool system for day to day sharpening, and I use this belt sander when something has been seriously neglected, or I have a lot of knives to sharpen.
Lol, your knife is so hard you need extra tools to sharpen it? Weird brag. Very manly.
It needs a diamond rod or stone to sharpen it, yes. It’s not about manliness, it’s about function. Having a harder steel means that it retains an edge longer, and doesn’t require as frequent sharpening. There are potential drawbacks to steel that hard, such as increased brittleness, but that doesn’t matter for me because I’m not using it to strike anything, and don’t cut things that would cause the brittleness to become an issue.
As someone who washes his knives in the dishwasher (please, don’t hurt me), I think you’ve just inspired me to take better care of my knives. Think I might stop putting them in the dishwasher and hand wash them instead and get at least some kind of basic knife sharpening system. I’ve got a couple of knives that could use the little bit of extra care so I’m not struggling every time I need to use them.
That makes me so happy to hear! My sister took terrible care of her knives until after she cooked at my house and used my knives. She said that it was such a different experience that she went out and got a decent knife and sharpener the next day. My mother-in-law did the same thing.
That belt sander that I linked is stupid simple. You’d have to try to mess it up. Well, I guess if you don’t follow the instructions, or really lay into the grind a bunch of times you could mess it up, but it’s really simple if you read the instructions or watch the video. It’s super fast too. Like 2 passes and you’re done! If it’s completely dull then you’ll want to use 3-6 passes with each grit, but once it’s sharp then you can just use a honing steel before each use which takes like 5 seconds, and hit the edge with the fine grain sandpaper every few months.
When you push things around on the cutting board with the knife, use the back of the knife, not the blade. That alone will extend the life of your edge considerably. Then when you’re done, just wipe it off with soapy water, rinse it, dry it, and put it away. Since you’re cleaning it while it’s wet, the whole process takes like 30 seconds.
You don’t need an expensive honing steel. Even an Oxo or something should be sufficient for most knives.
If you don’t already have a good knife, then the Forschner knives are a great value for the money. I think they just go by Victorinox on Amazon (yes, the Swiss Army knife company). I’ve had their santoku for 20 years now and it’s still perfect.
If you want to get a superior knife, then the J.A. Henkels Zwilling Pro is an amazing knife for the money. This 7" chef’s knife is what I reach for 99% of the time. I like it a lot more than my Wüsthof knives. The length, balance, and handle shape are just about perfect for me. With proper care you can pass that knife on to your kids and it’ll last their whole life too.
Last but not least, you don’t need a full set. Almost nobody does. A good chef’s knife will cover most use cases. Add a paring knife, and you’re pretty much set. If you cook a lot then a long thin utility knife is nice for tomatoes, meats, and other soft things, but it’s not a necessity. A bread knife is a luxury for after you have the other knives I mentioned. A sharp chef’s knife will have no problems with bread.
I hope you enjoy your new superior cooking experience! It makes a huge difference.
Okay, bye.
Sure, all of that and then you go out with an half windsor, like a schoolboy
I use a pair of bose like that when I’m at work. The Noise Cancelling is really good.
When you drive the the circus and all the clowns are dead
