The Germans did have hand grenades without a stick. Their doctrine was the stick type was for offensive operations, and the little one was favored for defense.
I assume this has something to do with the distance you can throw them.
Their doctrine was the stick type was for offensive operations
A minor addendum, the M24 and M43 stick grenades both had fragmentation sleeves produced for them. These could be quickly fitted over the grenades to change them from offensive to defensive grenades. Similar to the RGD-33 stick grenades used by the Soviets.
I assume this has something to do with the distance you can throw them.
The difference between offensive and defensive grenades is defined by how much fragmentation they produce. Without a fragmentation sleeve, a German stick grenade produces blast and concussion but very minimal fragmentation, making it’s practical danger area smaller. This is good for an offensive grenade where the person throwing it likely has less cover than the person receiving it. A defensive grenade produces fragmentation, and is desired when the person throwing it has cover to hide behind safely.
The non-stick grenade commonly used by the Germans in WW2, was the Model 39 (“egg grenade”), and it actually came in both offensive and defensive flavors. So really, either a stick or egg grenade could be used for either role.
Yeah, the basic premise for these things is that they have a smaller radius, but you can throw them further, so the enemy has to deal with it exactly the same, but since the radius is smaller and you threw it further, it gives you a much larger space in which you can advance and not worry about shrapnel. Basically lob a couple and while you don’t have to deal with so much suppressive fire, advance and find cover and do it all over again.
For defensive scenarios, you generally aren’t advancing, you’re just wanting the enemy to not advance, so a pineapple works just as well, if not better. It gives you a big boom, and psychologically that gives you an edge. You might also get flushed out and wind up in close quarters kinds of environments where the grenade on a stick just doesn’t work, but the pineapple is easy enough to lob out of a window or bunker or around a corner. In any sort of urban or close quarters environment you’d want the flexibility of a baseball as opposed to throwing a bat.
Kind of a trench war novelty, but they’ve evolved to be more of an antiarmor thing - throw a parachute on it so it’s aligned vertically, make it detonate when it lands, make it blow straight down as opposed to all over the place, and try to get that thing to land on a tank
throw a parachute on it so it’s aligned vertically, make it detonate when it lands, make it blow straight down as opposed to all over the place, and try to get that thing to land on a tank
You’ve basically just described a HEAT round without the melted copper penetrator.
Actually, they just described a HEAT grenade. Of the cute anti-armor grenades with parachutes, the RKG-3 is a great example. The purpose of the parachute is to make sure the HEAT penetrator is facing the right direction.
I was thinking more of the tried and true soviet RKG3 and the half dozen variants/clones. They’re terrifying when they work, but everyone figured out that cope cages and improvised shields create such a gap that renders them mostly useless, and at the end of the day it’s playing lawn darts with a tank. For some reason they’re still all over the place, probably used more for IEDs or destroying infrastructure than tanks
everyone figured out that cope cages and improvised shields create such a gap that renders them mostly useless
Not sure how much I really want to commit to that air gap idea. Pretty much every time there is data, the ideal standoff is somewhere between 8 and 12 times the diameter for a given HEAT warhead.
The nets and cages seen like on US vehicles weren’t designed to give standoff on an ideal detonation, but to catch the nose of an incoming round in the open space and hopefully strip apart or dud it. It is commonly called “statistical armor” because it relies on the statistical chance of being hit in the right place to work.
Against a weapon which won’t be shorted out by this armor it is, well, cope. The reason you don’t see RKG-3s often in Ukraine footage is more likely they they aren’t common, and other better options that can be fired accurately and from more distance are.
HEAT is just a type of warhead. You can put it into lots of things. You are correct that the front of the warhead needs to be facing the target.
In hand grenades, the penetrator usually faces down compared to the “stick”. The sticks in these grenades are not simple wooden sticks, but hollow metal ones containing parachutes. The grenade is meant to be thrown in a large arc or dropped from above (from a bridge or building) on to the tank. The parachute helps drag the back of the grenade and keep the penetrator pointed at the target (maybe).
Their doctrine was the stick type was for offensive operations, and the little one was favored for defense.
Hmm…defensive hand grenades. There’s something crazy I’ve wondered before; is there anywhere it’s legal to use hand-grenades as a form of home defense?
Let’s say you live on a big property in the middle of nowhere, like a ranch out in West Texas. So you know that if you detonate a hand grenade on your property, you can be absolutely sure that the fragments won’t fly through your walls and hit a neighbor. Let’s say you live alone, and you’re so stupid wealthy that you don’t give a damn about grenade damage in your own home.
Imagine this is true. Is there anywhere in the US you could legally keep a crate of hand grenades in a gun safe, and just start chucking them at a home invader?
Not correct. It’s an ‘other destructive device’, and is covered under the National Firearms Act of 1934. Each one would require completing a transfer form, waiting for approval from the ATF, and cost $200 for the tax stamp. …And would then be usable exactly once.
You might be able to manufacture a grenade with an ATF Form 1 approval, but I’m not positive. And, again, it’s a single-use item that requires a $200 tax stamp.
The Germans did have hand grenades without a stick. Their doctrine was the stick type was for offensive operations, and the little one was favored for defense.
I assume this has something to do with the distance you can throw them.
Also they’re way bigger, taking more space in storage and when in transport
We have grenade launchers now.
Someone needs to make one that fires the stick grenades. At 3500 RPM.
Once again NCD reinvents the bolter
Life, uh, finds a way.
The 30mm “Barrett” Pattern bolter, created by MARS, Inc. and Barrett, is currently undergoing evaluations by the US Army.
Everything old is new again.
MARS, Inc? Like the candy bar guys?
Nah it was a collab with the god of war.
Started as nougat research. As in, “how do we make a lot, in a hurry?”
Wake up babe new A-10 ammo just dropped
A minor addendum, the M24 and M43 stick grenades both had fragmentation sleeves produced for them. These could be quickly fitted over the grenades to change them from offensive to defensive grenades. Similar to the RGD-33 stick grenades used by the Soviets.
The difference between offensive and defensive grenades is defined by how much fragmentation they produce. Without a fragmentation sleeve, a German stick grenade produces blast and concussion but very minimal fragmentation, making it’s practical danger area smaller. This is good for an offensive grenade where the person throwing it likely has less cover than the person receiving it. A defensive grenade produces fragmentation, and is desired when the person throwing it has cover to hide behind safely.
The non-stick grenade commonly used by the Germans in WW2, was the Model 39 (“egg grenade”), and it actually came in both offensive and defensive flavors. So really, either a stick or egg grenade could be used for either role.
Yes, and?
Yeah, the basic premise for these things is that they have a smaller radius, but you can throw them further, so the enemy has to deal with it exactly the same, but since the radius is smaller and you threw it further, it gives you a much larger space in which you can advance and not worry about shrapnel. Basically lob a couple and while you don’t have to deal with so much suppressive fire, advance and find cover and do it all over again.
For defensive scenarios, you generally aren’t advancing, you’re just wanting the enemy to not advance, so a pineapple works just as well, if not better. It gives you a big boom, and psychologically that gives you an edge. You might also get flushed out and wind up in close quarters kinds of environments where the grenade on a stick just doesn’t work, but the pineapple is easy enough to lob out of a window or bunker or around a corner. In any sort of urban or close quarters environment you’d want the flexibility of a baseball as opposed to throwing a bat.
Kind of a trench war novelty, but they’ve evolved to be more of an antiarmor thing - throw a parachute on it so it’s aligned vertically, make it detonate when it lands, make it blow straight down as opposed to all over the place, and try to get that thing to land on a tank
You’ve basically just described a HEAT round without the melted copper penetrator.
Actually, they just described a HEAT grenade. Of the cute anti-armor grenades with parachutes, the RKG-3 is a great example. The purpose of the parachute is to make sure the HEAT penetrator is facing the right direction.
I was thinking more of the tried and true soviet RKG3 and the half dozen variants/clones. They’re terrifying when they work, but everyone figured out that cope cages and improvised shields create such a gap that renders them mostly useless, and at the end of the day it’s playing lawn darts with a tank. For some reason they’re still all over the place, probably used more for IEDs or destroying infrastructure than tanks
Not sure how much I really want to commit to that air gap idea. Pretty much every time there is data, the ideal standoff is somewhere between 8 and 12 times the diameter for a given HEAT warhead.
The nets and cages seen like on US vehicles weren’t designed to give standoff on an ideal detonation, but to catch the nose of an incoming round in the open space and hopefully strip apart or dud it. It is commonly called “statistical armor” because it relies on the statistical chance of being hit in the right place to work.
MPDI link article with charts and more explanation.
Against a weapon which won’t be shorted out by this armor it is, well, cope. The reason you don’t see RKG-3s often in Ukraine footage is more likely they they aren’t common, and other better options that can be fired accurately and from more distance are.
Thought HEAT rounds were tank fired and traveled horizontally (ballistically)?
HEAT is just a type of warhead. You can put it into lots of things. You are correct that the front of the warhead needs to be facing the target.
In hand grenades, the penetrator usually faces down compared to the “stick”. The sticks in these grenades are not simple wooden sticks, but hollow metal ones containing parachutes. The grenade is meant to be thrown in a large arc or dropped from above (from a bridge or building) on to the tank. The parachute helps drag the back of the grenade and keep the penetrator pointed at the target (maybe).
Thanks! That was all new to me.
I would assume in bunkers you don’t want to try to throw the stick version through the small slits or windows.
Counterpoint: Team Fortress 2 - Caberknight
Counterpoint: Team Fortress 2 - Caberknight
Hmm…defensive hand grenades. There’s something crazy I’ve wondered before; is there anywhere it’s legal to use hand-grenades as a form of home defense?
Let’s say you live on a big property in the middle of nowhere, like a ranch out in West Texas. So you know that if you detonate a hand grenade on your property, you can be absolutely sure that the fragments won’t fly through your walls and hit a neighbor. Let’s say you live alone, and you’re so stupid wealthy that you don’t give a damn about grenade damage in your own home.
Imagine this is true. Is there anywhere in the US you could legally keep a crate of hand grenades in a gun safe, and just start chucking them at a home invader?
It isn’t legal to own hand grenades in the US so I would imagine the self defense part would be irrelevant.
Though I’d imagine it they might be allowed if they were legal because you can use, say, your car as a weapon in self defense…
Not correct. It’s an ‘other destructive device’, and is covered under the National Firearms Act of 1934. Each one would require completing a transfer form, waiting for approval from the ATF, and cost $200 for the tax stamp. …And would then be usable exactly once.
You might be able to manufacture a grenade with an ATF Form 1 approval, but I’m not positive. And, again, it’s a single-use item that requires a $200 tax stamp.
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