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They might be rich. Lotta int. students, especially in undergrad come from wealth. If so, there ain’t no way you gonna change her mind on China lol.
With the prices of flights to China, she MUST be ABSURDLY rich.
There are plenty of liberals from the PRC, especially from the big liberal cities such as Shanghai. There are still a whole bunch of NED funded media/social media accounts in the mainland in general.
In my experience meeting such classmates they’re not that different from some of the HK/TW international students as they all tow the same line.
I have met a few that are not liberal, however my thought here is always, why would they chose to come here, Some for the international understanding, but moat will chose a place with an ideology they think will align with them
One of the main reasons might be the fact that some of the highest ranked universities are located in the US, UK, Australia etc.
Competition is quite intense in the mainland and usually a degree from a university from these countries will add some prestige to their resumes (sometimes we refer to those as ‘plating it in gold’).
moat
*most
moist*
I found a YouTube link in your comment. Here are links to the same video on alternative frontends that protect your privacy:
I wouldnt worry, these chinese ameriboos pose no threat to china really since the material reality speaks for itself. Look at how joshua wong ended even with complete backing of the West lmao.
But like maybe confront her propaganda?
lol no, don’t be a snitch. Nobody likes a snitch.
Why is this ignorance upvoted?
Shame on this liberalism. Shame on your cowardice, your weak will.
1 month old account and already spreading nonsense.
Are we that full of anarcho-liberals who think good things and bad things are exactly the same, all cops are bastards and government and authority are bad that we just accept “snitching” is bad?
No. Reporting counter-revolutionaries and liberals is good when done to socialist authorities.
Do you think a revolution will succeed or endure in the face of external attempts at overthrow, pressure, etc without snitching? Without reporting liberalism? Counter-revolutionaries? Traitors? etc. Of course not.
Why then do you hate China? Why do you hate an in-power communist party? Why then do you take the position that there is harm to socialism, to communist parties, to the global proletariat from reporting backwards, anti-social, improper, and treasonous behaviors? Should people not be held to account?
Do you think counter-revolution springs out of thin air? How do you think the events of June 4th occurred? Did they materialize out of nowhere? Or was there a build-up of exactly this kind of person, this kind of thinking, forming networks, organizing, etc. How do you think terrorism and CIA spy rings operate but through people like this, their friends, their acquaintances, family they pressure or trick into revealing info. Every little piece of information is helpful for understanding the whole, the puzzle. For building leads, understanding relationships, uncovering persons of interests.
Do you seriously think that a western citizen who reports an overseas Chinese citizen to the PRC will help China? It will draw unnecessary attention because it will make it look like China is somehow “recruiting spies” in the US. This girl is probably just some rich kid who loves the west. Have you never seen them before? Have you even left your room and interacted with the outside world? There are plenty of people from China abroad that criticize the shit out of the government. The Chinese government doesn’t give a shit about small fries like them cuz they’re powerless to actually effect any change. Are you even thinking dialectically? Or do you think you’ll get some reward from the Chinese gov’t for doing such a thing? WTF are you on about??
it will make it look like China is somehow “recruiting spies” in the US
The west will claim this regardless of reality. We live in a post-factual world by-and-large in this regard, so it doesn’t matter IMO.
As for the girl being small fries, probably. It honestly doesn’t really matter much. But a comprador is a comprador, it may not matter much but it’s the little things in life (like helping a society drive out its libs) which make life all the sweeter. What disadvantage with all this in mind, is there? Maybe, just maybe there is the chance of good coming out of it- the chance of anything negative is negligible, and then there’s the personal satisfaction angle to consider as well.
Snitching on an international student will not help China drive out it’s liberals. China has a bourgeois class operating in full public view. China will drive out liberals by developing it’s relations and forces of production and transitioning to a higher stage of socialism.
The potential disadvantages are many. Including (1) ruining a naive young person’s life for no reason (2) putting yourself and the girl on the five eyes’ radar just to cosplay a cold war spy and (3) substantiating (Chinese) liberals’ claims that communists are aUthoRitArian.
Agreed with the first paragraph, and with point #2 on the second. As to this girl being “young and naive” or anything substantiating claims that commies are “authoritarian” though- I don’t expect anything would come of it unless she were actually up to no good. I have been young and naive myself, but that did not change the fact my actions could cause harm, and also consequences upon myself.
And when it comes to “authoritarianism”- apart from that said claims would be made regardless of the fact, why should we care what Chinese or western liberals think? They’ve already made up their minds, and the overwhelming evidence to the contrary exists if they ever become willing to change their minds as well. Capitalist countries certainly keep a close eye on leftist, particularly communist, and any minority organizations, because they’re trying to protect their economic system, abhorrent as it is. And AES countries absolutely do, and should do the same- it is in the interest of any state, any ideological grouping, to do so, and to shirk from it out of some misguided libertine ideals will simply invite disaster, and is not a mercy that will ever be returned in kind. But I repeat- I don’t expect anything to come of this even if she were reported, unless she were genuinely up to no good. Anyone with the sense to see it can see China is not some totalitarian place, as you said, there are even bourgeoisie operating in public view- and in many ways China could be said to be freer than the west, in large part due to the cracking down on and actual consequences for bourgeois liberals which does not exist in the west.
That’s a whole lot of assumptions, ad hominems and straight up insults. Reporting a student will not bring about a global revolution, get a grip. I’m not even going to bother responding to your rage-filled post.
Reporting a student will not bring about a global revolution, get a grip. I’m not even going to bother responding to your rage-filled post.
Yeah that user is… uh, I’m speechless.
Speechless because you have no arguments? Just insults. See I can be abrasive, but I wouldn’t just call you a name, I’d call you something and then illustrate why you were wrong and why it fits, I’d bring arguments from my corner when making the point.
I couldn’t care less if you personally think she shouldn’t be reported. I probably wouldn’t bother myself due to the risks associated with contacting foreign intelligence. That’s not the point per se.
Because it changes nothing of the fact that “lol don’t be a snitch” is not a Marxist attitude and is one deserving of being called out and clowned on. Is not the attitude of a communist. It’s one that deserves rebuke and perhaps can give some food for thought.
Our goal is to smash our enemies and uphold friendly parties and defend revolutions, that includes those of our allies or for out of power Marxists in the west the actually existing socialist states. Take a different take on this situation, same girl is in trouble with US police, going to prison in the US for a few years over a crime they think they’ve got her cold on, I have evidence that could exonerate. I’d not bring it forward, I’d let her rot. You might call that hate. But isn’t shooting fascists (which no one here would argue with) hate? Isn’t that even more violent and liberty depriving? Isn’t having socialist police crowd control and detain liberals trying to do a color revolution hate by the same logic? How many steps removed before it’s okay? Where is the line drawn and by what logic?
All liberalism and anti-communism everywhere is a threat to communism and the proletariat everywhere. There are of course degrees. Do not assume I am saying that a fascist war criminal who has killed communists with his own hands and works for western intelligence is no worse than this girl or that she’s the same as the runner of a propaganda outlet that’s funded by NED. And there are degrees of response by in-power communist parties to these things. But the fact remains they are all threats, all can give way to the other, rise from one to the other, work with the other, etc and should not be categorically declared entirely different.
My point is if you people recoil in horror, cringe, cry, flinch, wring your hands at the prospect of some tiny, minor problems being created in some random self-hating Chinese liberal’s life (like questioning at the airport back home or electronic surveillance) because of her choices (informed choices by the way given she didn’t grow up in the western propaganda machine like me and many here). How on earth are you going to fight and win a revolution? How on earth could you defend a revolution? You’d let the lives of those who fought for a revolution be wasted.
Oh no, she might be sat in a room and grilled for a few hours (as tons of Chinese are by the US simply for their nationality), oh no she might never work for state industries or get into the party and those close to her might be given more scrutiny, the horror, the oppression. How could mean old me ruin her life like this!
Do you not see that from liberalism and fascism are the same. That from benign things like the type of bullshit this girl is alleged to be spouting grow counter-revolution, grow reactionary/fascist terror squads, terror attacks, murders of communists, sabotaging of labor movements, crushing of socialist countries. People like her had a hand in destroying the Soviet Union. The immense suffering of the Russian people is the exact kind of thing she and those like her, if victorious would bring to the Chinese people. The exploitation of children, the suicide rates, the plundering of the nation, it’s people, its resources. You stay your hand, you allow them latitude, you allow them to nibble away, to salami-slice away with slightly escalating tactics until the moment comes when their violence springs forth and unlike you they have no pity, they do not waver or hesitate or consider if it might hurt you or others.
I have love and pity in my heart for the proletariat, for my comrades. For billions of human beings whose lives socialism can improve. I do not have room for that for liberals like this, for self-hating traitorous people with poison in their veins and lies from their mouths. I don’t care to pathologize and muse on the psychology. They are impediments, they are enemies. They are not worth trying to fix when that time is so much better spent on unconvinced members of the proletariat.
Good luck with your revolution bro. gimme a shout out when it’s successful. hopefully nobody snitches on you LOLOLOLOILOL
Your anger and passion, while commendable, is misdirected. We’re not your enemies.
Who said you were my enemy? You were incorrect. There is room for correcting others within the bounds of friendship and camaraderie and I’d go as far as to say true comrades must correct each other.
I do apologize for coming off rather intensely but that’s mere sentiment and tone. The message I stand with.
Also it seems someone is upset in this thread. I was downvoted, you were downvoted in this reply. I don’t care either way but I want you to know I’m not downvoting this comment of yours.
I am not incorrect. Your whole premise rests on an assumption that you can tell if a State is “good”, benevolent and will last forever. What happens if the current communist party degrades and is replaced by another communist party or by a different faction within it? Uh oh, now you are someone who was a snitch for the previous government, perhaps even snitching on their comrades (they don’t know who you’ve snitched on). Now you’re labeled an informant and a suspicious character by the new communist party in power. That’s from a personal/pragmatic standpoint.
Now for the “collective” standpoint: Snitching is bad in all countries, socialist or not. If you live in a building with people and you inform on them, guess what? You’ll be excluded from all social life. You’ll just have to contact the police when you need a few extra chairs for a party you’re having, cause the neighbours aren’t gonna give it to you.
The aim of individualist liberalism is for us to have social contracts with the state and not with each other. I’d much rather people come to me directly if I’m doing something wrong (maybe I don’t know it’s wrong) than to have the police come knocking on my door. I’m sure that’s the same for most people. And what is the girl’s (in OP) “crime”? She expressed an opinion. She didn’t form an anti-Chinese group, she didn’t pass State secrets to the CIA, she didn’t have secret meetings at her home where they performed Falun Gong rituals…
Here’s some examples of snitching from the West:
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/jan/13/lockdowns-uk-true-character-nation-snitches-useless-leaders
https://phys.org/news/2022-11-covid-australians-snitching-neighbors.html
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/pleasure-peril-snitching-pandemic-1.5544367
https://www.politico.eu/article/coronavirus-lockdown-snitches-thrive-in-europe-reports-watchmen-spying-neighbors/People don’t snitch for noble causes like “protecting the revolution” or “guarding the State”, people snitch out of envy, or because it makes them feel in control or better than others. Call me a liberal all you want, but I don’t want to live in a country full of snitches.
I want you to know I’m not downvoting this comment of yours.
I don’t downvote comments, only upvote or not.
I doubt this person has actually interacted with people in the real world. To them snitching on this Chinese student/girl/whatever is just some sort of video game decision (like Skyrim or some shit). Completely idealistic and fucking stupid if you ask me.
the fact you liken this to a fucking videogame betrays how deeply unserious you are.
touch grass please I am begging you. Just go outside, vitamin D is good for you.
And I don’t even necessarily disagree with you, just everyone involved in this whole thing are cringe as fuck
Well your take upsets me. It is wrong, dangerous and like all liberalism should be called out.
Global revolution. What a flippant, ridiculous response. What a myopic response. That the only things worth doing are those that immediately smash that communism button, that global communism button and if things don’t do that they’re not worth doing. People with that thinking have been backstabbing and sabotaging real gains for the proletariat for a hundred years. You want to leap to the finish line but that’s not how it works. You want magic not Marxism, you want tolerance for counter-revolution, for the people who commit genocides, who subjugate the working class, who commit a thousand horrible, mind-tearing horrors upon humanity under their system.
They had made their bed, let them reap the consequences. My pity is for the workers.
Idealism is an infection you must fight. If you want to object to the idea that China needs this info, go ahead, I agree that’s debatable though I think no modern spy agency is ever going to say “too much info” in the computerized age where plotting networks of people and interactions, metadata is the primary way of understanding and finding targets of real interest (NSA for example mainly scrapes and saves metadata, not content, but relationships, times, people, places). But that’s not what you said, what you said was that snitching was bad. Steps, process. What are they? What is historical development? What is building things slowly but surely? What is guarding the revolution? What is countering liberalism at every step and why must we do that? Why must we not allow a bit of liberalism to remain in stock people like you claim, what harm can it cause. An individual is only part of a group that becomes a whole. An individual liberal is not a threat, a group of liberals are but one cannot arrest just the group while leaving the individuals on their way, one cannot surveil the group without the individuals.
How does revisionism and counter-revolution start anyways? It starts with making little allowances, with giving an inch, with saying “oh what’s the harm of this person or that” until they’re everywhere and until the structure is rotten and the USSR’s collapse is what you get.
Mao’s “Combat Liberalism” has some good thoughts on this subject.
Well your take upsets me. It is wrong, dangerous and like all liberalism should be called out.
I made a general post against snitching, you then went on and made a bunch of assumptions:
Why then do you hate China? Why do you hate an in-power communist party?
That’s a leap, isn’t it. I hate snitching therefore I hate China and its communist party. lol what?
Global revolution. What a flippant, ridiculous response.
That’s what you said!
Do you think a revolution will succeed or endure in the face of external attempts at overthrow, pressure, etc without snitching?
You didn’t specify which revolution, so I assumed you’re talking about a global revolution.
Then you go on to make more assumptions:
You want magic not Marxism, you want tolerance for counter-revolution, for the people who commit genocides, who subjugate the working class, who commit a thousand horrible, mind-tearing horrors upon humanity under their system.
I want all that because I think snitching is bad?
You don’t want a discussion, and you’re not answering sincerely. You saw an opportunity to virtue signal and rant about all sorts of things that have nothing to do with me or what I said.
You don’t want a discussion, and you’re not answering sincerely. You saw an opportunity to virtue signal and rant about all sorts of things that have nothing to do with me or what I said.
Bet you that person couldn’t even organize the documents on their desk, let alone a global revolution. That person sounds like a future George Orwell to me not gonna lie… Or maybe they’re just some edgy 15 year old genzdong’er debatebro
A lot of expats will try incredibly hard to prove that they are “one of the good ones” to try and fit in with the racist white people in their new country, by constantly badmouthing their home country and talking about how “superior” white culture is. They get empty, shallow relationships with people where they spend their entire time licking boot and either being mocked or fetishised.
(EDIT: this person is NOT from Taiwan), so they probably don’t even know that they’re spreading misinformation, they probably think they’re being genuine. Not sure there’s anything you can do about this though. Sure, they’ll spread misinformation, but it’s only stuff the gullible racist white folks around her already belief (or want to believe). You confronting her or trying to disprove her claims will be ignored, because she’s Chinese and you aren’t, therefore she knows more in every circumstance automatically, as long as she agrees with the western status quo of course.
Just…try not to be bothered by it. Maybe speak to her in private, try to understand why she says the things she does, try to understand her as a person, maybe even make friends with her, she might not be as horrible as you initially think. You’re not going to change any minds trying to “debunk” everything she says, and you’re only going to make enemies that way. You need to be friendly and sincere, you don’t need to hide your opinions, but you don’t need to shove them in people’s faces either. People aren’t going to change their mind just because they were “proven wrong.” People just double down on bad ideas if they’re challenged on them like that. It needs to be a slow, steady, educational process, teaching people how to understand sources and judge claims and challenge their preconceived notions.
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Based on them being rich and being 100% sincere in their believing of western propaganda. They could be from the mainland, but I’ve met people from Taiwan who were more ignorant about Chinese history (especially the PRC’s history) than westerners. I’m assuming this person has been educated (or indoctrinated, if you prefer) into anti-China/pro-West attitudes, which are prevalent in Taiwan.
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Ah, I see. I misunderstood.
I wouldn’t. If she really is that prominent and dangerous within China, the MSS likely already knows about her. If she isn’t, you’re just wasting their time. (And possibly, if the story breaks in the liberal media, creating a martyr).
Plus, you’re gonna have it on your record that you were in contact with a foreign security service. Don’t think that won’t come back to bite you later on – the US government has sent communists to jail for less.
(And possibly, if the story breaks in the liberal media, creating a martyr)
Tell that to the dumbass below (https://hexbear.net/comment/4684307) who wrote out an entire screed about why it’s good to snitch on this girl lololol
I’m gonna quote that user for posterity’s sake:
Why the fuck is this ignorance upvoted?
Shame on this liberalism. Shame on your cowardice, your weak will.
1 month old account and already spreading nonsense. Having a lemmygrad account is a privilege not a right.
Are we that full of anarcho-liberals who think good things and bad things are exactly the same, all cops are bastards and government and authority are bad that we just accept “snitching” is bad?
No. Reporting counter-revolutionaries and liberals is good when done to socialist authorities.
Do you think a revolution will succeed or endure in the face of external attempts at overthrow, pressure, etc without snitching? Without reporting liberalism? Counter-revolutionaries? Traitors? etc. Of course not.
Why then do you hate China? Why do you hate an in-power communist party? Why then do you take the position that there is harm to socialism, to communist parties, to the global proletariat from reporting backwards, anti-social, improper, and treasonous behaviors? Should people not be held to account?
Do you think counter-revolution springs out of thin air? How do you think the events of June 4th occurred? Did they materialize out of nowhere? Or was there a build-up of exactly this kind of person, this kind of thinking, forming networks, organizing, etc. How do you think terrorism and CIA spy rings operate but through people like this, their friends, their acquaintances, family they pressure or trick into revealing info. Every little piece of information is helpful for understanding the whole, the puzzle. For building leads, understanding relationships, uncovering persons of interests.
Yeah, I saw that. The sad thing is, the sentiment expressed isn’t wrong – state power does at times need to be deployed against counterrevolutionaries – it just has no bearing on the present case. Thinking we need to freak out and call the authorities over every single instance of anticommunism is the mentality which produced the worst excesses of the Cultural Revolution. And those excesses helped create by reaction some of the liberalism which unfortunately exists in China today.
Or to put it more succinctly: McCarthyism, but in reverse, is Not A Good Idea.
They put out a maximalist statement, “snitching is bad”. No less ridiculous than saying all cops are bastards in the context of socialist cops. I countered that such thinking is unreasoned and ridiculous.
The fact is AES nations have historically and to this day by necessity maintain surveillance of liberals and counter-revolutionaries. If you think that’s not a threat you haven’t paid attention to what happened to the Soviet Union and Xi’s anti-corruption drive in China. And frankly if you think it is not a paramount concern of all Marxists everywhere, especially those who may have to live through a revolution and securing that revolution afterwords then we must pray that you and most others learn because if not any such revolution would be lost.
If you are a good Marxist you will snitch. It’s called accountability. It’s called living in a society with an emphasis not on maximum individual rights even to the detriment of others but a balance with the collective good. If you have or hold anti-social tendencies, especially of the anti-communist to the point of lying variety, expect to suffer from it, expect to be held to account.
Words and deeds do harm. Every voice raised with these lies by people like her has the potential to convince a potential western proletariat ally that no, we the Marxists are wrong, that a Chinese person wouldn’t lie, that communism is evil and bad, that China is evil and bad. Maybe later one of them takes up a gun, they fight communists (in a revolution or in China), they kill several comrades before being killed. All this part and parcel of the conscious actions of this person. Should we not wish for a world where she is held to account at least in a small way to what her actions and lies give rise to? Just because she wasn’t holding the gun? In that line of thinking why hold the western press to account for supplying to ink for the imperialist war machine? Why hold the politicians account who never personally shot and killed anyone just paid for it, ordered it, justified it, gave those listening moral authority and righteousness to do so.
Thinking we need to freak out and call the authorities over every single instance of anticommunism is the mentality which produced the worst excesses of the Cultural Revolution.
Do you not trust the party? The problem was not people informing the authorities of liberalism. It was the red guards going out and punishing every minor little infraction of it. If they’d quietly taken that down in a file with a reasonable threshold for action there would have been no issue. China has learned and grown and it isn’t nice to insinuate that would be a problem today with a party as advanced in theory as the CPC is.
This is not a matter of someone committing the kinds of minor infractions that people had their lives ruined over in the cultural revolution. This is someone knowing lying about their home country, knowingly spreading falsehoods about the communist party, knowing engaging in rabid anti-communist messaging.
Or to put it more succinctly: McCarthyism, but in reverse, is Not A Good Idea.
Silly in my opinion to compare these things. But I get not all comparisons can be perfect.
Unpack it comrade. Why are intelligence agencies scary and bad? Because you associate them with CIA and their abuses and anti-communism. But a proletarian intelligence agency is by virtue of its mission and authority it stems from good. Having information on someone is not a bad thing. Most modern sig-int collections intelligence is meta-data. Networks. Knowing who knows who, what times they talk, what their relevant overlap and ideology is. If you see someone who otherwise would be under the radar but they’re associating with people who thanks to work and tips are known to be anti-communists you look a little closer before letting them have power.
I don’t think OP should report this person to the MSS while in the west due to the risks such contact with the MSS brings to them personally.
If you are a good Marxist you will snitch.
“Snitching, the highest stage of Marxism.” by darkcalling
Honestly, they’re not totally wrong. The revolution does need to be protected. As I argued above, it’s more a matter of emphasis.
The revolution does need to be protected.
I agree. You can protect it by educating each new generation of people, among other things. Both the Soviet Union and DDR had snitches reporting people to the state, and in both the communist party failed to protect the revolution. Do you want to argue they failed because people didn’t snitch enough? That’d be interesting to see.
Now you get into some very difficult historical territory. The collapse of socialism in the USSR and Europe is a complicated phenomena, and probably no one fully understands it yet.
But yes, I agree it’s generally better to educate people in tandem with raising their living standards. All I want is to point out that there’s nuance, and sometimes ugly things have to be done. The situation that Swinging6917 described is not one of those times.
Like I said, I don’t think you’re wrong in principle, more so in application. The maximalist statement “snitching is wrong” is certainly to be condemned, as one can see from the fact that nobody, whatever their ideology, really holds it. There will always be some crime which people think the authorities should be apprised of. And I appreciate you calling out the anarchist/shitlib mentality that “all cops are bastards” and everywhere to be condemned, regardless of whether they serve capital or (in a socialist society) protect the people.
There does, however, have to be a balance struck between going after counterrevolutionaries, wherever they appear, and a sense of social trust. This is because, as history shows, too great a penetration into society of the security apparatus – and yes, security agencies are a good thing – also tends to undermine social cohesion, almost as much as too little penetration. The great purges in the USSR were necessary. They are also remembered by average Russians, even those who admire (as a whole lot of them do) Stalin as Russia’s greatest leader, as a particularly bad time in Soviet history. You and I and most people on this site are deeply interested in politics, and passionate about fighting injustice, and we like the idea of continued purges, and no counterrevolutionary sentiment being too small to report. Most people, and that includes most workers, are not like that; their interest is mainly in providing for their families, working a fulfilling job, feeling a sense of pride in their country, and having a sense of security in the future. Security agencies not doing their job obviously undermines that sense of security, but so does a situation where everyone feels they can be reported on at any minute. The latter situation does not generally exist in socialist countries, except in times of great crisis (and it is generally better at such times to crack down hard and at once, rather than extending the situation indefinitely as capitalist nations often do); but we always need to beware the ultra-leftist sentiment that could lead us there.
And speaking of avoiding ultra-leftism: national matters should generally stay national. Assume the MSS knows about this person if she is a threat, and that they will take the appropriate action. To say the a westerner should be involved in the situation to the same degree Chinese citizens are is to fall, in a minor way, into the trap of Trotskyism which states that the proletarian revolution is international in both content and form. As we know from Stalin, the revolution is socialist (therefore international) in content, but national in form.
Lmao this is absurd
Tell that to some of the commenters, one person in particular insists that snitching is ok. Also went all debate bro about it.
Maybe I’m a liberal by saying this but I pray this is a troll post
I doubt anything will come of it, but if you ask me? Report her. Every little action matters, and just remember- these libs will almost certainly do the same if the opportunity arose.
Do it
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Is this a joke post or are you seriously trying to snitch?
From the way you describe her, they already know.
