Imo, remove hijab to be booked: reasonable. If the rest of her claim is true, what the fuck
Yeah, that ain’t right. Now they’ve foolishly and unnecessarily planted a seed of hate in the woman and the people she loves.
Why not book her with her hijab? That’s how she’s gonna be almost all the time anyway so a picture without her hijab is a little meaningless.
Immutable features only, I assume. If Joe always wears a baseball cap because he’s balding, should his booking photo include the cap? If Roy always wears a bandana, should that be included? If Jane always wears a burqa, should she wear it in the booking photo?
Hair is not exactly immutable. Unless you force to remove wigs and shave their head.
Shaving would likely be a step too far and potentially even considered an assault in some jurisdictions, and they do likely remove wigs.
Generally hats are removed to make sure people aren’t smuggling things in their hair into the jail.
I see. In that case it should be a woman doing the search but I guess there is a need to remove hijab.
According to the article it was a single woman doing the search. The real issue was the camera in the room sending footage to the lobby. But the Hijab being removed is a must when searching for contraband.
Would a nun be treated any differently if she was accused of a crime? I don’t really have an opinion on it but I like thinking about that when a news story involves a hijab
I’d hope not and she’d have to take whatever it’s called off for the photo
It’s called a habit.
The head thing specifically is a coif and veil and sometimes they wear a cornette which is the handmaid’s hat essentially.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cornette
And then there’s Polish Cornette, or what I like to call “Paper Airplane Nuns.”
I mentioned it specifically because they make me giggle.
Catholic Burka
Are nuns supposed to keep their head covered all the time? If so then neither should be forced to take off their head cover.
For a strip search? It should be done in presence of women only (as it’s acceptable to show hair in front of other women) and that should be it. If everyone else gets a strip search there should be no exceptions, especially not a religious one (religion is a private thing, prisons are related to the State, both are supposed to be separate).
As for the part where there was a projection in the lobby, that’s completely disgusting and there’s no justification for it.
It shouldn’t be done in front of anybody except the officer doing the search imo (who should be a woman in this case) and maybe one other officer for safety purposes when necessary. I have no idea why it’s made such a public affair.
It should be done in front of a woman because apparently that is the safest way to officially have naked women in front of men but it shouldn’t be a religious thing that only women are involved because of what she deems appropriate.
Yeah a strip search is another story but for booking pictures taking a picture of a hijabi or a nun without the clothing they can’t leave their home without doesn’t make much sense, is what I’m saying.
Same treatment for everyone, your religion shouldn’t afford you any privileges and men should be booked by men, women by women, that’s it.
Should a woman that wears full face covering be booked with with only their eyes visible? What about if they wear a burqa with mesh in front of their eyes? They can’t leave their home without it either…
Should a woman that wears full face covering be booked with with only their eyes visible? What about if they wear a burqa with mesh in front of their eyes? They can’t leave their home without it either…
The thing with face covering is that it actually defeats the purpose of ID pictures. That’s my line. As long as that’s not crossed I believe the government should respect its people’s beliefs, religious or not. It’s the same as Sikhs being allowed to take knives of a certain length with them to court.
It’s less that religion should afford people privileges and more that this shouldn’t be a privilege; if someone has beliefs or circumstances that prevent a certain government action from taking place and that action isn’t strictly necessary, the action should be modified, not forced on people.
The government should respect its people’s belief by letting them practice whatever they want to practice in their private life as long as it doesn’t put other people in danger, the moment people interact with the State their religion has fuck all to do with the law and shouldn’t be a factor to change the way they’re treated and you would agree with that if it was a situation where people were arrested just for wearing a hijab that we were talking about. Neutrality doesn’t care if it’s sometimes in your favor and sometimes not.
Someone that wears a DNC/RNC hat at all times when they’re out of the house wouldn’t be allowed to keep it for a booking picture would they? Why? Their freedom to express their political opinion is just as important as other people’s freedom to practice their religion.
I believe the state should be concerned with people’s rights, safety and wellbeing and then their confort and convenience. If that means making religious (or otherwise) exceptions then I don’t see the problem with that. As long as whatever needs to be done gets done the idea of no religious exceptions is just counterproductive. Again, Sikhs getting to take their knives to school and court is a good example; as long as no hard is done there’s no need to blindly stick to the rules since the point of the rules is to improve people’s lives.
Separation of church and state doesn’t mean the state’s rejection of religious belief; it means religious institutions don’t get to participate in lawmaking.
A hijab is not a face covering, though. Letting her leave it on no more hides her facial identity than the fact that, even if you photograph her hair, she could get a cut and dye or wear a wig. Other than noting her current hair color l am not sure what a photo of their current haircut is going to do. Even the color thing might be useless, for those same reasons.
Easy to lower it enough to hide an easily identifiable birthmark on the forehead and it also hides the neck.
Anyway, I don’t know why people want preferential treatment based on religion in a State system in a country where religion and State are separate.
I think that the same class of accommodations that are made for things like driver’s licenses or other government IDs can be made here.
I personally am a strong atheist, meaning I have a positive belief that no gods exist. When talking about such things, I prefer the use of the term “god-concept” instead of “god” because it emphasizes that we’re discussing a particular characterization rather than a being. I am also an anti-theist and I am anti-religion in general (while recognizing that religion can and has served an evolutionarily important function historically, which I would be more than happy to talk about).
In any case, I don’t see that the value added is justified when measured against the cost in terms of community relationships. If there’s a specific (and justified) rule about photographing birthmarks and tattoos - and I’m skeptical but open - then that’s fine. But I believe that every reasonable accommodation should be made to ensure that anything we do with people who have been arrested should be minimally intrusive and driven solely by actual, data-driven needs and reviewed by an independent community board. The penal system in the US is already bad enough with racism and classism that I’m not going to just take their word for it.
Because why not? That’s the only reason needed; if the state can do something to make life more convenient for its people at no convenience for itself then there’s no reason it shouldn’t. Separation of church and state doesn’t mean rejection of religion, and too much of the latter can (basically has) become a religion in its own right.
A hat is clothing and would generally be removed during a strip search. Even if it’s a magic god hat.
You have no issue with the televised strip search in the lobby?
Did I say that? Obviously ACAB and if there’s any justice in the world these cops will be jailed. That’s so obvious I didn’t bother saying it.
It seems weird that the hijab was the detail that you felt was worth addressing. Like looking at a burning building and being like “the landscaping is all wrong”
It was a detail highlighted by the writer of the article in the title. Is the writer saying removing a silly hat is on the same level of severity as having your strip search televised to a prison lobby?
One, the writer often doesn’t get to write the headlines for these, could be an editor that did this. I would say details like a hijab are included in the headline because its a more contraversial thing.
I did not interpret his comment that way. With the original Post there were two things highlighted to be wrong. One of which the commenter above adressed. He did not justify any actions other than forcing removal of all clothing during a strip search.
Do you expect every comment on Ukraine posts to start with “I think war is bad”?
I just think the juxtaposition is weird and in a “man did you even make it all the way through the headline?” way. I mean this with peace and love.
Its just like what was the chain of thoughts there? Did you read the entire headline and saw the part with the broadcasted strip search and say “I need to make sure everyone knows the hijab removal is normal”?
Wow. Even for cops that’s vile
What does a ‘strip search’ entail here? Not that I’m excusing the officers actions here - it’s clearly reprehensible to be so callous about religious clothing and for it to have been observed by others via the tv - but I feel very differently if they streamed her naked vs clothed without her abaya
You might feel differently, but she might not considering what it would mean to her personally based on her culture and religion. I think what matters is that either would be quite violating in this context.
Yeah, I do agree - she was clearly uncomfortable, either way
Exactly, facts of the case matter and the headline is rolling two controversial issues in this case into one.
I believe the fact you are looking for is that she was searched in the nude in a private room with only one female officer (which itself is against the local policy). But afterwards…
While Doe waited to have her booking photo taken, she was asked to wait on a bench in the jail’s lobby. The lawsuit states that’s when she realized there was a TV screen “hung right above the door where she had been strip searched” and it was streaming footage from inside the room and facing the lobby, for all in the room to see.
This is pretty fucked up.
In my experience a strip search can mean anything from get completely naked squat and cough to get down to your underwear and pull out the waistband all the way around.
Also it’s always been in front of other arrested people.
I mean, I’ve conducted probably quite a few if not at least a couple hundred strip searches myself when I was a Corrections officer. We used privacy screens and even if there was a lot of other inmates around, they had no visual of the stripped inmate, and were usually about 10 feet down the hall with a third C/O while me and my partner would conduct the search. Any religious articles like necklaces with a large enough pendant or cross, a kufi or what have you would be taken and searched, but I always immediately gave them back to the individual to put back on if they wanted/needed to. Typically, one officer is searching their clothes while the other directs the inmates to follow the steps, which is usually shake hands through hair, bend the ears, open the mouth and lift the tongue, raise arms, lift their junk, turn around lift both feet so the soles face you, then they spead their butt.
Well, I have been strip searched twice. The first time was at the Jefferson county jail in Birmingham, Al. They take you around the side of this wall where a deputy sheriff (they use deputies instead of corrections officers) stood there with a trustee and another dude that got brought in same time as me, but unrelated to me. We had to get naked, spread our cheeks, and squat and cough, lift our junk, etc. We were given some orange scrubs and long ass flip flops. Then the deputy took our clothes while we were getting our jail clothes on, and the trustee asked us if when we got out he could have our cigs. That time I was so dope sick that the other dudes in the jail took pity on me , and gave me a spot to be alone, and because I couldn’t eat and kept puking they let me sign my own bond. Plus it was a possession charge. I got caught with a gram of heroin.
The second time. The only ride I could find to get to court for the above charge was one of my old dope friends. We got pulled over and she had needles in the car. They gave me one just because I was with her.
Anyway, that time a cop took me into an office and shut the door. He had me strip down to my boxers, and because of how my last experience was I started taking my boxers off. He was like woah stop. He said “just stretch out the waistband all the way around. So, I did and he let me go.
Edit: when I got my clothes back it was same deal. They had all of us that were leaving in a holding cell together. Then, about 20 mins before letting us go. They brought us out lined us up and had us strip and get redressed.
I should clarify I was a state ran prison corrections officer. I didn’t want to do jail given the fact a lot of the people brought in are still drunk/high and potentially (likely) very upset, and possibly combative or resistant, especially in the town I was in the PD were a shit show as many tend to be. Lot more hassle. Once they get to prison, barring a burst balloon of drugs occasionally, they’re sober for the most part unless they got money, then whatever gets smuggled in is their game.
Yeah, the jails and prisons here (in Alabama) are notoriously dangerous and all around awful. When I got arrested I was taken to a jail cell in Birmingham. I was put in a tiny cell with 8 other guys. There was no AC it was August and Alabama summers are brutal. It was at least 90 in there. Plus there was a toilet full of feces and urine that wouldn’t flush.
After about 6 hours of that a cop took me and one other guy to county. I think that’s because our charges were potentially felonies. I say potentially because mine was a felony but I did a drug program that made it not a felony.
So they strip searched us and put us in a holding cell. By this point I hadn’t had a fix in about 24 hours. I was sweating bullets. I was puking bile. I could barely talk.
After, that they took us to our cells. When I got to mine the guys pretty much instantly gave me a bunk and said that they’d leave me alone as much as they could. It just so happened that even though we didn’t know each other we had grown up in the same town outside Birmingham.
I assume I was there for about 24 hours. They served me 3 meals and I gave away 3 meals. They came and got me told me to sign my own bond. Then at 2 am kicked me and like 15 other guys out on the street.
I walked like 5 miles to get to the place I was staying at the time. Still sick and puking the whole way. It was unpleasant to say the least.
I’m clean now. I even got off the methadone. I am stone cold sober, and it fucking sucks. Alcohol makes me feel like shit. Weed makes me paranoid. Don’t even get me started on uppers. I fucking hate uppers. I tried micro dosing mushrooms. That is awesome, but it gives me migraines sometimes. Oh well, c’est la vie.
I see no issue with treating religious clothing exactly as what it is, clothing. Just because someone chooses to believe a piece of clothing is magic doesn’t make it so.
If god doesn’t like it he can come down here and say something.
Fuck religion. It’s a plague. But don’t dehumanize people. I don’t think people should be able to cover their body when being photographed for a crime. But let them get back to it.
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