Casemiro going from being over-priced questionable signing to essential part of the team to washed dead money back up has happened at a remarkable pace.
Casemiro was never overpriced or questionable. He was valued exactly what he was worth and definitely one of the least questionable signings Manchester United has made.
Casemiro signing was always questionable. Letting along the obscene amount of money on a 30 y/o, the guy is pretty much the opposite of every Ten Haag football idea: a slow midfield destroyer pretty poor with his feet for a manager who strives for possession and high pressing never made sense. They basically obliged him to switch to a transitional team
His pass percentage last season plummeted every time he played against a team competent enough to keep him under pressure, you think that’s a coincidence?
29 year old DM on mega wages from Madrid is definitely questionable. I can’t ever recall a time where Madrid have gotten the short end of the stick when getting rid of one of their big stars, that alone should’ve raised question marks. Madrid are very good at assessing the level of their players
I’ve said it elsewhere on the thread but Robben and Sneijder weren’t performing at Madrid, was definitely best for them to move elsewhere. Makelele was sold as result of a failed vanity project, Ozil was sold because he was no longer going to be a starter with the emergence of Isco and signing of Bale.
A player performing at a world class level for Madrid who is still at the top of their game generally never leaves Madrid
Lots of minutes with little to no rest due to no replacement and the team are pressing higher mean he is asked to press more intense than before. All combined to him rarely being fit for all 90 mins and wouldn’t be in the position to defend counter as he and Ten Hag want
Honestly, he’s also always been a motivation based player. I think at Madrid that was sort of papered over because there always is so much pressure, and he’s always been so questioned, and real we’re always in a position to compete. But if you go to his early career, people thought he was lazy at São Paulo, and at Porto he played a lot better in the CL (and I’d say even over his real career he was always better in big games). I imagine that it’s not just physical but also mental in this case.
I think at Madrid that was sort of papered over because there always is so much pressure,
I could not disagree more. There is massive pressure when the stakes are high yes - But there is also a reason why Real has never won a treble or isn’t as consistent in the league, priority number one is the CL.
Not disagreeing with that. It is just that in a club like United with its current situation and the level of competition every other game is a big game - Slip up and goodbye to CL qualification as actually ended up being the case. That and the fact that there were no quality backups like Ceballos always meant that the move was high risk. Case should have picked a move like Inter, would have been perfect
Ten Hag switched to an insane high press two-10s system leaving midfield even more exposed than before, leaving Case completely exposed having to do the work of two men. Then after Case misplaced one pass and we conceded he gets blamed for being shit when in reality it was the change to an unworkable system that practically doomed our early season results.
It’s funny how people don’t even consider that tactics can affect a player’s form. They think Casemiro being late to challenges is because he’s in the space of a few months lost his legs, and not because he’s been running for two players.
Wouldn’t say it’s insane, the idea was for Shaw to tuck into midfield in possession and be that extra man in case of turnovers. But… he got injured after two games.
I don’t think Casemiro is the issue. He was arguably the best CDM in the world when he signed. Granted, he was in a world class setup at Madrid where he had basically played his whole career.
But Casemiro as a player has been, overall, one of UTDs shining lights.
It’s difficult to play your best when you’re demotivated and man utd is a shambles
There 100% was questions whether £60 mil price tag and 4 year contract for a 30 year old DM on 350k a week was overpriced. A bit revisionist to pretend there weren’t question marks at the time
I can’t really believe it’s happened. I was lucky enough to be invited to see the Carabao Cup final last season, which Man United won, and Casemiro was brilliant. You could tell his big-game experience shone through and he was cool, calm and composed throughout, the definite MOTM. How he’s gone from that to not getting on the team sheet so quickly I don’t quite get. I guess it’s because they are trying to play a much more energy intensive style, and his game just doesn’t suit it.
It is just bewildering to me how Man United continuously sign the same flavor of player over and over again, the experienced player who’s “good enough to hold up the Man United name”, they produce 1-2 seasons of good performances and then something happens and they’re out. Happens over and over again - here with Varane and Casemiro, then there’s Eriksen, Ronaldo, Cavani, Lukaku, Matic, Mkhitaryan, Ibra, Sanchez, Di Maria, Schweinsteiger.
Note, this isn’t a list of United transfer flops, of which there are a whole lot more, but a list of the same archetype not working over and over again. You could argue that some on these list recouped some money, or that they brought value for a couple of seasons in a certain way, but that’s not the point - for a team to rise back to the top, you need a concrete plan, and repeatedly signing players without the means to succeed long-term is the opposite of the stability that’s needed for a project. You can’t build a team up if your marquee signings all get crocked/fall out/become surplus/want to leave after 1-2 seasons - there’s just no project then, no concrete plan to get back to the top, and it’s back to square one with next manager.
It’s because united has been a purely commercial club since Fergie left. Glazers didn’t care about the football. they didn’t care enough to appoint competent people for the different important roles at the club like CEO, sporting director, scouting team etc. they let fucking ed Woodward, a business man to make football decisions like signing players. Then they appointed a fucking accountant as the CEO. What do you expect? 🤷🏻
As if they haven’t signed upcoming young players like Sancho, Anthony, Pellistri, Lukaku, Pogba … to name a few. Those haven’t exactly worked out well either have they?
It’s happens sometimes when you spend big on older players. People like to think that top players all stay at peak level deep into their 30s but many do tail off fast.
Yeah but Chelsea got him for free. Even if he had been garbage he would’ve been valuable for culture. Cavani, Thiago Silva, Zlatan, Larsson, etc all good signings. Even someone like Gary Mac for Liverpool.
If United had signed him for free they’d still be going on about how good he is. But on the flip slide Chelsea would never have spent £70m on Casemiro.
You guys are a money-no-object club, you can absolutely afford to take the gambles and pocket the wins. United are having to budget carefully for FFP and they’ve blown a fortune on transfer fee/wages here!
What part of that doesn’t mean giving a huge contract to an aging player is a risk? You seem to be arguing that it’s not a risk because he was signed on a free transfer.
United have even more money than chelsea, just chelsea sometimes actually sell players they’ve spunked away all their money on so they can spunk away some more money
It happens but it shouldn’t and wouldn’t to these 4-5 time champions league winners there’s some common factors in the dips in performance with these two players we’ve seen it with Ronaldo as well.
Everytime you mention someone over 30 might decline suddenly you are bombarded with people claiming that there’s “no way a professional like him” could decline and that sports science has gotten so advanced that it essentially trumps biology meaning there’s no reason players would decline one bit before they’re 36 at the earliest.
Yup! I remember getting attacked here for questioning the value of Casemiro at his age/price/contract cos who wants to believe that a player they like might decline soon. Was the same with Peresic who everyone assured me would be a wonderful wingback adapting to PL aged 33!!!
It’s a real minority who play deep into their 30s, handing out big contracts to such players should be done with real care and scrutiny unless you are a monopoly money club then whatever gamble away!
Many people often also ignore the human element of this. They think footballers are robots like in their games of FIFA on PS5. There are so many examples of footballers losing their drive to stay at peak performance or who want to move onto other interests.
This wave of guys like Ronaldo, Messi, Ibra, Thiago Silva, Modric, have made people forged that 90% of players over 32 are going to drop their performance lvl. People forget these are professionals with their hands on top level technology, nutricion, recovering etc. Also 2 of them were born with probably 1 in a million natural genaracional talent. That and like you said games like Fifa and FM have made people look at older player in a diferent way ( which is not all 100% correct). Hell, 15 years ago, a 29 year old player would be called ancient.
That and like you said games like Fifa and FM have made people look at older player in a diferent way ( which is not all 100% correct).
FIFA and FM very much help ingrain the idea that players are washed up and on the decline as soon as they hit 30 - which is the opposite of what you’re saying.
I get your point about players like Modric, Messi, Ibra, Silva, etc, distorting people’s opinions of how long a player can be at their peak for - but the FIFA/FM part is nonsense.
I 100% did this. I said “A 29 year old is a total waste of our time and money. its ridiculous. wtf are we doing? The club has lost it! He’s totally washed and over the hill! Did we learn nothing from Joe Cole?!? FFS!”
Not to mention, when a player is young and poor they are hungry. I just am not certain how a 32 year old, who is worth millions can have that same want to get out of bed every day with achy joints and go train, instead of living in leisure and just putting in the time. It is still a job and many forget that.
There are so many examples of footballers losing their drive to stay at peak performance or who want to move onto other interests.
And I can’t really blame them.
You’ve earned millions, played tons of important games, won trophies. At some point you might think ‘‘been there, done that’’ and start prioritizing other things besides your footballing career.
For some players the drive to compete and strive for the best never diminishes but it’s not all what’s out there.
A few high profile players elongated their careers and now everyone on here thinks all footballers can play past their mid thirties and goalkeepers begin their prime at 30
Which is a stupid argument. Plenty of players that look after their body just decline physically though no fault of their own in their 30s. Look at Diego Forlán. He was always in peak shape, single digit bodyfat and wanted to run for everything, known for longevity. Yet just before the 2011 Copa América when he was 32, he just fell off of a cliff at club level, didn’t score in 12 games and just did not have the legs to play in Europe anymore as a mobile striker. Sometimes it just happens, players decline regardless of how well they look after their body. No one can beat farther time. Jordan Henderson is another example, be was declining for years before leaving Liverpool, despite always being in tip top shape.
Its millage in the legs also… messi and Ronaldo always were efficient with the effort… would walk half the game etc… it’s the charge around non stop players who’s muscles and tendons just lose their snap
This subreddit and other social media were hilarious when they signed them. Like it’s logical to question the merits of spending that much on players of that age. Sure there’s some who have held off their declines, but the majority of players dip at a certain age. For the money United spent, they could have bought far better long term options.
For the money United spent, they could have bought far better long term options.
But they didn’t want long term options. They’ve got the cash to sign a Casemiro every year or two.
They’d rather overpay for proven players than risk spending a chunk on a player who’s not quite as good, but has room to improve.
Players of his calibre are so rarely available, and especially not willing to go to a borderline CL qualifier with little realistic chance of a title win.
The problem Man U have is that they’ve got the resources for those top drawer players, but they’re not an attractive option.
I mean, imagine them trying to sign Jude Bellingham. Is there actually an amount of money they could have given him to sign there? 3, 4, 5 times the wages Madrid offered? I think he’d still go to Real.
And if he did go to Man U, it would literally only be for money, so not that motivated to put in a good performance. As we’ve seen over and over.
United now are no different to when Liverpool were taken over by FSG. They focused on long term building with smart signings. Signing players after in decline or just before their decline isn’t getting them anywhere. There’s a world of options between Casemiro and Bellingham.
On one hand casemiro has gotten away with murder on the field without getting a card so many times in the other hand that may be a skill. Not really sure how to read these stats - feels like context makes it too nuanced.
Your comment generalizes and says nothing of value
Nobody has ever said what you are saying you are just overexaggaratting, when both Casemiro and Varane were signed people quesioned it including like Carragher etc
Your point is awful, age matters yes but 3 months of bad performances doesn’t mean 31 year old player is shit and has declined, what would happen if he is good next season? Does age not matter or is it just shit overall team performance by basically everyone
I actually don’t think most people think this. I think most people HOPE that top players extend their time at the top, but are well aware of the evidence that it’s unlikely.
Soccernomics has their research saying most players peak at 27 IIRC. And that seems to be commonly accepted. Hence why there are so many revelatory articles about players 30+ continuing to do well, Mo for example.
Rashford and AWB examples are fluctuations in form, an inherent lack of consistency, and/or fit with the manager’s tactics and what the squad needs. This is different than an age-related decline in quality when a player hits a point where their experience and knowledge of the game is no longer able to make up for the loss of athleticism.
Outside of significant injuries, it’s rare that a good player hits their peak in their early-mid 20s and can never get back to that. A lot will reach their potential and stop developing but they don’t go backwards. That’s why it’s so surprising and attracts attention when it does happen, e.g. Dele.
Players in their mid 20s peak and fall off all the time we have thousands of examples, some players are just not that good and peak fall off season after season
Sure, you can find some, but thousands of examples? I think it’s far more often the case that the players that look to have gotten worse really aren’t, they are just being expected to play at a level beyond their abilities so they look bad. For example a player having a great season in the Championship, getting sold to a PL team and doing poorly most likely isn’t receding from their peak, they were never a PL level player to begin with.
Rashford’s a budget player who turns it on for 7 months when a contract is on the line. Xhaka grew as a player when his role was adapted to provide him better cover to make up for his lack of pace and somewhat questionable defensive instincts. Casemiro has just gotten old after being consistent forever.
Younger players who function better in one system or another or others who turn it on at pinch points in their career are not the same as older player going over the hill.
See another stupid comment with goldfish memory and just zero evidence
Rashford never gives a fuck, he sulked and didn’t jump for headers last season any time i watched but he scored goals so your goldfish memory forgets that
Also how Casemiro got REALLY fat in the offseason.
One would think he would try to stay in shape now he is over 30. Nope. Party all the way and pick up a lot of weight that needed to be shed really fast.
Tbh it’s really quite common for guys who’ve won everything towards the end of their careers to come back in not the best shape. They’re human after all, some players stay super motivated into their deep 30s but I don’t blame anyone who lets themself go a little bit. It’s more you don’t wanna be on the hook for lying such a player a quarter million a week cos 3 years ago he was a world beater!
In basketball it’s typically that after you hit like 31, 32 you have a 15-20% chance of injury that you never really recover from. Idk if it’s happened to casemiro here or not though.
It happens when you buy a player who is good at quick progressive passes, good at defense, and great with quick possessions and you have him hold the ball, be the sole pivot, and not pair him with anyone that fits him. Using him as a sole pivot is especially a problem, that doesn’t make any sense in the modern game where every good team has two pivots, much less with a player that isn’t used to it
I’ve said this many times, anyone who saw KCM play knew Casemiro barely had any on ball responsibilities.
As soon as I saw that Ten Hag was asking him to spray the ball around the pitch like prime Pirlo I knew there’d be a problem. He can give you a few good passes and dribbles but he can’t do it every game for 90 minutes, never has ever had to.
Now All of a sudden he’s “washed”, he’s far from washed imo. Any team looking for a pure destroyer type CDM, and already has good ball playing CMs would benefit him greatly. United’s other midfielders aside from Bruno are not up to standard.
It’s happened quicker than expected, but I think most expected it to happen.
He’s a great player and will retire with a golden legacy. Asking a 30-year-old to play in an end-to-end league like the Premier League was a recipe for disaster. He did well in year one, but the team is such a mess he’s being asked to do more than he’s able.
Casemiro was always talented but also the poster boy for too good, too soon and unmotivated as fuck. I was surprised when Real Madrid bought him and even more when he excelled there, it’s unfathomable for anyone who watched him in his São Paulo days.
So not all that surprising that he fell off massively after 1) crashing out of probably his last WC and 2) moving to United lmao
Casemiro going from being over-priced questionable signing to essential part of the team to washed dead money back up has happened at a remarkable pace.
Casemiro was never overpriced or questionable. He was valued exactly what he was worth and definitely one of the least questionable signings Manchester United has made.
Of course this was at the time of his signing.
Casemiro signing was always questionable. Letting along the obscene amount of money on a 30 y/o, the guy is pretty much the opposite of every Ten Haag football idea: a slow midfield destroyer pretty poor with his feet for a manager who strives for possession and high pressing never made sense. They basically obliged him to switch to a transitional team
Casemiro is far from “poor with his feet”.
His pass percentage last season plummeted every time he played against a team competent enough to keep him under pressure, you think that’s a coincidence?
29 year old DM on mega wages from Madrid is definitely questionable. I can’t ever recall a time where Madrid have gotten the short end of the stick when getting rid of one of their big stars, that alone should’ve raised question marks. Madrid are very good at assessing the level of their players
Id say odegaard but that is with hindsight. He couldnt break into the first 11 at the time
He wasn’t a big star though
He was bright though, great with La real the year before.
Hakimi
Robben, Makelele, Sneijder and Ozil (to a slightly lesser degree) all performed at a world class level after leaving Madrid.
I’ve said it elsewhere on the thread but Robben and Sneijder weren’t performing at Madrid, was definitely best for them to move elsewhere. Makelele was sold as result of a failed vanity project, Ozil was sold because he was no longer going to be a starter with the emergence of Isco and signing of Bale.
A player performing at a world class level for Madrid who is still at the top of their game generally never leaves Madrid
Robben in his last season at Madrid was the sole reason we made UCL football
Robben was definitely performing at Madrid
It’s less than 18 months since they signed him for £60m and now he’s getting binned off and yet he’s not a questionable signing? Sure thing mate.
He was one of our most important players, he was brilliant for all of last season.
I don’t know what happened this season.
Lots of minutes with little to no rest due to no replacement and the team are pressing higher mean he is asked to press more intense than before. All combined to him rarely being fit for all 90 mins and wouldn’t be in the position to defend counter as he and Ten Hag want
Honestly, he’s also always been a motivation based player. I think at Madrid that was sort of papered over because there always is so much pressure, and he’s always been so questioned, and real we’re always in a position to compete. But if you go to his early career, people thought he was lazy at São Paulo, and at Porto he played a lot better in the CL (and I’d say even over his real career he was always better in big games). I imagine that it’s not just physical but also mental in this case.
I could not disagree more. There is massive pressure when the stakes are high yes - But there is also a reason why Real has never won a treble or isn’t as consistent in the league, priority number one is the CL.
I mean, he always performed in the CL though. League and copa were always a bit more disappointing, because they are lower stakes.
Not disagreeing with that. It is just that in a club like United with its current situation and the level of competition every other game is a big game - Slip up and goodbye to CL qualification as actually ended up being the case. That and the fact that there were no quality backups like Ceballos always meant that the move was high risk. Case should have picked a move like Inter, would have been perfect
Ten Hag switched to an insane high press two-10s system leaving midfield even more exposed than before, leaving Case completely exposed having to do the work of two men. Then after Case misplaced one pass and we conceded he gets blamed for being shit when in reality it was the change to an unworkable system that practically doomed our early season results.
Thank you. Finally someone has some ball knowledge in this pathetic sub.
It’s funny how people don’t even consider that tactics can affect a player’s form. They think Casemiro being late to challenges is because he’s in the space of a few months lost his legs, and not because he’s been running for two players.
r/reddevils is just as bad.
Yup.
Wouldn’t say it’s insane, the idea was for Shaw to tuck into midfield in possession and be that extra man in case of turnovers. But… he got injured after two games.
Is he being binned off? Why are you so certain about trusting the Daily Mail?
You’re acting like the transfer is actually happening right now, not like you’ve read a story in a paper which routinely makes things up.
I don’t think Casemiro is the issue. He was arguably the best CDM in the world when he signed. Granted, he was in a world class setup at Madrid where he had basically played his whole career.
But Casemiro as a player has been, overall, one of UTDs shining lights.
It’s difficult to play your best when you’re demotivated and man utd is a shambles
He was arguably our most important player last season.
You’re speaking in retrospect while completely ignoring the fact that the dude just tried to clarify that he meant without retrospective knowledge.
Yeah, because he ninja edited in the last part, and people absolutely did question it at the time too.
Don’t think we’d have got top 4 without him. I’d imagine Champions League football is worth about that, even if we’ve crashed and burned in it.
A lot of the financial boost to getting CL football gets burned on player bonuses though
He’s not getting binned off.
There 100% was questions whether £60 mil price tag and 4 year contract for a 30 year old DM on 350k a week was overpriced. A bit revisionist to pretend there weren’t question marks at the time
Wait whats wrong with Casemiro beyond injuries i thought he was one of Man Us best?
Crazy
I can’t really believe it’s happened. I was lucky enough to be invited to see the Carabao Cup final last season, which Man United won, and Casemiro was brilliant. You could tell his big-game experience shone through and he was cool, calm and composed throughout, the definite MOTM. How he’s gone from that to not getting on the team sheet so quickly I don’t quite get. I guess it’s because they are trying to play a much more energy intensive style, and his game just doesn’t suit it.
He’s not getting in the team cause he got an injury keeping him out for 2 months. When fit he always plays.
It is just bewildering to me how Man United continuously sign the same flavor of player over and over again, the experienced player who’s “good enough to hold up the Man United name”, they produce 1-2 seasons of good performances and then something happens and they’re out. Happens over and over again - here with Varane and Casemiro, then there’s Eriksen, Ronaldo, Cavani, Lukaku, Matic, Mkhitaryan, Ibra, Sanchez, Di Maria, Schweinsteiger.
Note, this isn’t a list of United transfer flops, of which there are a whole lot more, but a list of the same archetype not working over and over again. You could argue that some on these list recouped some money, or that they brought value for a couple of seasons in a certain way, but that’s not the point - for a team to rise back to the top, you need a concrete plan, and repeatedly signing players without the means to succeed long-term is the opposite of the stability that’s needed for a project. You can’t build a team up if your marquee signings all get crocked/fall out/become surplus/want to leave after 1-2 seasons - there’s just no project then, no concrete plan to get back to the top, and it’s back to square one with next manager.
Maybe because it has to do something with the club itself then???
You don’t go from decade of world class to shit in a season or two.
You might not, but Manchester United do
Eriksen, Cavani and Ibra were free transfers at least. Di Maria was 26 when he signed for United.
And Lukaku was like 24 when he signed for United, and had two very good seasons at Inter afterwards.
It’s because united has been a purely commercial club since Fergie left. Glazers didn’t care about the football. they didn’t care enough to appoint competent people for the different important roles at the club like CEO, sporting director, scouting team etc. they let fucking ed Woodward, a business man to make football decisions like signing players. Then they appointed a fucking accountant as the CEO. What do you expect? 🤷🏻
He was signed at 26, right after his best season for Real Madrid…
As if they haven’t signed upcoming young players like Sancho, Anthony, Pellistri, Lukaku, Pogba … to name a few. Those haven’t exactly worked out well either have they?
Were any of them upcoming?
RVP to a lesser extent
It’s happens sometimes when you spend big on older players. People like to think that top players all stay at peak level deep into their 30s but many do tail off fast.
Lewandowski could be headed for the thing if his form doesn’t pick up soon.
he’s got 7 in what 10 games this season for barcelona, come on.
🎶Ohhh Thiago Silvaaaaaaa🎶
We know we got lucky.
Yeah but Chelsea got him for free. Even if he had been garbage he would’ve been valuable for culture. Cavani, Thiago Silva, Zlatan, Larsson, etc all good signings. Even someone like Gary Mac for Liverpool.
If United had signed him for free they’d still be going on about how good he is. But on the flip slide Chelsea would never have spent £70m on Casemiro.
You guys are a money-no-object club, you can absolutely afford to take the gambles and pocket the wins. United are having to budget carefully for FFP and they’ve blown a fortune on transfer fee/wages here!
United fans and crying about money when they’re just as bad, name a better combo
united just do shit business
huh wasn’t thiago silva was a free transfer though?
This has to be a copypasta
I assume there is a /s here lol.
We signed Silva on a free…and we also stay within FFP by selling/loaning players.
Wages still count for FFP. He’s not playing for free.
Our wage bill is smaller than City’s, Arsenal’s, and United’s…
What part of that doesn’t mean giving a huge contract to an aging player is a risk? You seem to be arguing that it’s not a risk because he was signed on a free transfer.
We give Silva 1 year deals that he and Chelsea must agree to extend…
United have even more money than chelsea, just chelsea sometimes actually sell players they’ve spunked away all their money on so they can spunk away some more money
United is also a money-no-object club lol. They are just bad at it
Overrated
Like Koulibaly with us tbh
Typical Brazilian
Schweinsteiger
It happens but it shouldn’t and wouldn’t to these 4-5 time champions league winners there’s some common factors in the dips in performance with these two players we’ve seen it with Ronaldo as well.
Everytime you mention someone over 30 might decline suddenly you are bombarded with people claiming that there’s “no way a professional like him” could decline and that sports science has gotten so advanced that it essentially trumps biology meaning there’s no reason players would decline one bit before they’re 36 at the earliest.
Yup! I remember getting attacked here for questioning the value of Casemiro at his age/price/contract cos who wants to believe that a player they like might decline soon. Was the same with Peresic who everyone assured me would be a wonderful wingback adapting to PL aged 33!!!
It’s a real minority who play deep into their 30s, handing out big contracts to such players should be done with real care and scrutiny unless you are a monopoly money club then whatever gamble away!
Perisic is our current best left winger. Last year was shit for everybody I don’t think there was any evidence he declined noticeably.
Oh look another example
Last year Perisic legs gone this year he is good
He tore his acl this year
So did Gavi a 11 year old
What is even your point he was good before that
Casemiro also played a ridiculous amount of games and any type of legginess at a position like DM gets exposed instantly in the PL.
Look at Fabinho ffs. Went from elite to literally washed in like 10 months. Still one of the craziest declines I’ve seen
Many people often also ignore the human element of this. They think footballers are robots like in their games of FIFA on PS5. There are so many examples of footballers losing their drive to stay at peak performance or who want to move onto other interests.
This wave of guys like Ronaldo, Messi, Ibra, Thiago Silva, Modric, have made people forged that 90% of players over 32 are going to drop their performance lvl. People forget these are professionals with their hands on top level technology, nutricion, recovering etc. Also 2 of them were born with probably 1 in a million natural genaracional talent. That and like you said games like Fifa and FM have made people look at older player in a diferent way ( which is not all 100% correct). Hell, 15 years ago, a 29 year old player would be called ancient.
FIFA and FM very much help ingrain the idea that players are washed up and on the decline as soon as they hit 30 - which is the opposite of what you’re saying.
I get your point about players like Modric, Messi, Ibra, Silva, etc, distorting people’s opinions of how long a player can be at their peak for - but the FIFA/FM part is nonsense.
No one called 29yr old players ancient 15 years ago.
yeah Zidane was 29 when Real Madrid signed him and I can’t remember anyone talking about his age
bud you’re on /r/soccer so you’re talking to a 10 year old, 15 years ago the universe didn’t even exist
I wish I could upvote you twice
🤯
I 100% did this. I said “A 29 year old is a total waste of our time and money. its ridiculous. wtf are we doing? The club has lost it! He’s totally washed and over the hill! Did we learn nothing from Joe Cole?!? FFS!”
… that 29 year old was James Milner.
Total garbage. 29 year old players have never been considered ancient.
Not to mention, when a player is young and poor they are hungry. I just am not certain how a 32 year old, who is worth millions can have that same want to get out of bed every day with achy joints and go train, instead of living in leisure and just putting in the time. It is still a job and many forget that.
He’s also someone that was competing for everything at Madrid and moved to a club that competes for a champions league spot every year.
Also when they’re young and poor their joints don’t ache, they haven’t been kicked for years, maybe don’t have children waking them up in the night
Casemiro also went from a culture where excellence is expected to a culture where it’s not.
And I can’t really blame them.
You’ve earned millions, played tons of important games, won trophies. At some point you might think ‘‘been there, done that’’ and start prioritizing other things besides your footballing career.
For some players the drive to compete and strive for the best never diminishes but it’s not all what’s out there.
Yep. What could he do that would live up to the ecstasy of winning the league cup?
A few high profile players elongated their careers and now everyone on here thinks all footballers can play past their mid thirties and goalkeepers begin their prime at 30
Which is a stupid argument. Plenty of players that look after their body just decline physically though no fault of their own in their 30s. Look at Diego Forlán. He was always in peak shape, single digit bodyfat and wanted to run for everything, known for longevity. Yet just before the 2011 Copa América when he was 32, he just fell off of a cliff at club level, didn’t score in 12 games and just did not have the legs to play in Europe anymore as a mobile striker. Sometimes it just happens, players decline regardless of how well they look after their body. No one can beat farther time. Jordan Henderson is another example, be was declining for years before leaving Liverpool, despite always being in tip top shape.
Its millage in the legs also… messi and Ronaldo always were efficient with the effort… would walk half the game etc… it’s the charge around non stop players who’s muscles and tendons just lose their snap
Hendo was never in tip top shape. He’s played through a heel problem for years even at his peak.
This subreddit and other social media were hilarious when they signed them. Like it’s logical to question the merits of spending that much on players of that age. Sure there’s some who have held off their declines, but the majority of players dip at a certain age. For the money United spent, they could have bought far better long term options.
But they didn’t want long term options. They’ve got the cash to sign a Casemiro every year or two.
They’d rather overpay for proven players than risk spending a chunk on a player who’s not quite as good, but has room to improve.
Players of his calibre are so rarely available, and especially not willing to go to a borderline CL qualifier with little realistic chance of a title win.
The problem Man U have is that they’ve got the resources for those top drawer players, but they’re not an attractive option.
I mean, imagine them trying to sign Jude Bellingham. Is there actually an amount of money they could have given him to sign there? 3, 4, 5 times the wages Madrid offered? I think he’d still go to Real.
And if he did go to Man U, it would literally only be for money, so not that motivated to put in a good performance. As we’ve seen over and over.
United now are no different to when Liverpool were taken over by FSG. They focused on long term building with smart signings. Signing players after in decline or just before their decline isn’t getting them anywhere. There’s a world of options between Casemiro and Bellingham.
Specially if they’re Brazilian, Marcelo took a massive dive right after 30.
Players decline nobody ever denies that
Casemrio was great 4 months ago so was Varane
The difference is team doing bad so you say this, it’s not about age it’s more about team performance
I just gave an example of Xhaka, do u think prime Xhaka was worse than 30 year old Xhaka? Or was it fans scapegoating due to club performances
Prime Xhaka is now innit? He was mediocre for years and was a liability for a red card.
How many red cards has Xaka compared to Casemiro?
According to TransferMarkt
Xhaka - 14 (7 Straight Reds) Casemiro - 5 (2 Straight Reds)
Across their whole careers.
On one hand casemiro has gotten away with murder on the field without getting a card so many times in the other hand that may be a skill. Not really sure how to read these stats - feels like context makes it too nuanced.
It’s no skill, it’s playing for Real Madrid.
he was still a beast though, us gooners just seemed to loathe him. I always thought he was sick af
casemiro hasn’t been great since february
well xhaka also had other issues that caused him to try to do to much thus lose what he was/is good at look not as great.
always liked him even through his bad spell ofc.
didnt help that he was signed when wenger was still there then gone through a few different mangers with different styles.
its prob the same at man u because different managers rate different /want different players or players that they want and not what they have as well.
besides the fact that they are older ofc
Xhaka has not declined yet. Nothing in my comment suggests that I think every player 30 or over has started to decline.
Your comment generalizes and says nothing of value
Nobody has ever said what you are saying you are just overexaggaratting, when both Casemiro and Varane were signed people quesioned it including like Carragher etc
Your point is awful, age matters yes but 3 months of bad performances doesn’t mean 31 year old player is shit and has declined, what would happen if he is good next season? Does age not matter or is it just shit overall team performance by basically everyone
Even moreso when they are the skillful players expected to carry the team, instead of another cog in the well-oiled machine.
Someone like Case who has won it all tends to fall off quicker and its not like United has big ambitions. Doesnt do much for your motivation.
I actually don’t think most people think this. I think most people HOPE that top players extend their time at the top, but are well aware of the evidence that it’s unlikely.
Soccernomics has their research saying most players peak at 27 IIRC. And that seems to be commonly accepted. Hence why there are so many revelatory articles about players 30+ continuing to do well, Mo for example.
No it doesn’t
It happens with young players too
Rashfor goes from shit to world class regularly, AWB went from shit to essential to shit
Many other United players and other team players as well, why? Because fans have the memory of a gold fish and when team does bad they do this
Rashford and AWB examples are fluctuations in form, an inherent lack of consistency, and/or fit with the manager’s tactics and what the squad needs. This is different than an age-related decline in quality when a player hits a point where their experience and knowledge of the game is no longer able to make up for the loss of athleticism.
Outside of significant injuries, it’s rare that a good player hits their peak in their early-mid 20s and can never get back to that. A lot will reach their potential and stop developing but they don’t go backwards. That’s why it’s so surprising and attracts attention when it does happen, e.g. Dele.
Players in their mid 20s peak and fall off all the time we have thousands of examples, some players are just not that good and peak fall off season after season
Not every player in their mid 20s is consistent
Sure, you can find some, but thousands of examples? I think it’s far more often the case that the players that look to have gotten worse really aren’t, they are just being expected to play at a level beyond their abilities so they look bad. For example a player having a great season in the Championship, getting sold to a PL team and doing poorly most likely isn’t receding from their peak, they were never a PL level player to begin with.
Yes thousands of examples
Players have one off seasons all the time in every league idk how people watch football but say this
Just in PL u have so many one season wonders let alone other leagues that you have never seen
Idk if i know this but it’s very hard to be consistent and great at a very high level
A one off season is not their actual level, it’s just being in great form…
It’s not just one off season, it’s overall consistency that is so hard to achieve at high levels not just in football in every sport
What do you mean about AWB? He went from shit to essential and then has been injured, he’s only just back
Rashford’s a budget player who turns it on for 7 months when a contract is on the line. Xhaka grew as a player when his role was adapted to provide him better cover to make up for his lack of pace and somewhat questionable defensive instincts. Casemiro has just gotten old after being consistent forever.
Younger players who function better in one system or another or others who turn it on at pinch points in their career are not the same as older player going over the hill.
Speaking of Rashford, he only gives a shit when he wants a new contract lol
See another stupid comment with goldfish memory and just zero evidence
Rashford never gives a fuck, he sulked and didn’t jump for headers last season any time i watched but he scored goals so your goldfish memory forgets that
He was much better last season - at times, the only other player with Bruno who was a consistent threat. This season, not so much.
Right, you complain about zero evidence and proceed to give zero evidence yourself. Come on.
Also how Casemiro got REALLY fat in the offseason.
One would think he would try to stay in shape now he is over 30. Nope. Party all the way and pick up a lot of weight that needed to be shed really fast.
Tbh it’s really quite common for guys who’ve won everything towards the end of their careers to come back in not the best shape. They’re human after all, some players stay super motivated into their deep 30s but I don’t blame anyone who lets themself go a little bit. It’s more you don’t wanna be on the hook for lying such a player a quarter million a week cos 3 years ago he was a world beater!
In basketball it’s typically that after you hit like 31, 32 you have a 15-20% chance of injury that you never really recover from. Idk if it’s happened to casemiro here or not though.
It happens when you buy a player who is good at quick progressive passes, good at defense, and great with quick possessions and you have him hold the ball, be the sole pivot, and not pair him with anyone that fits him. Using him as a sole pivot is especially a problem, that doesn’t make any sense in the modern game where every good team has two pivots, much less with a player that isn’t used to it
I’ve said this many times, anyone who saw KCM play knew Casemiro barely had any on ball responsibilities.
As soon as I saw that Ten Hag was asking him to spray the ball around the pitch like prime Pirlo I knew there’d be a problem. He can give you a few good passes and dribbles but he can’t do it every game for 90 minutes, never has ever had to.
Now All of a sudden he’s “washed”, he’s far from washed imo. Any team looking for a pure destroyer type CDM, and already has good ball playing CMs would benefit him greatly. United’s other midfielders aside from Bruno are not up to standard.
It’s happened quicker than expected, but I think most expected it to happen.
He’s a great player and will retire with a golden legacy. Asking a 30-year-old to play in an end-to-end league like the Premier League was a recipe for disaster. He did well in year one, but the team is such a mess he’s being asked to do more than he’s able.
they knew what they were getting into signing a 30 year old.
Casemiro was always talented but also the poster boy for too good, too soon and unmotivated as fuck. I was surprised when Real Madrid bought him and even more when he excelled there, it’s unfathomable for anyone who watched him in his São Paulo days.
So not all that surprising that he fell off massively after 1) crashing out of probably his last WC and 2) moving to United lmao
People see players like Modric, Lewa and Cristiano aging gracefully and expect everybody to do the same
Since when is he washed backup he’s injured
Casemiro was an overpriced questionable signing precisely because of the worries of an impending drop off though?
It wasn’t like people thought he was bad, it was that people thought he was likely to regress soon
Big Money + Old Player = Shit signing in 2 years.
Not a complicated process really.