I’ve been to places that had free municipal wifi, mostly at libraries and bus stops. It seems like a small service that is generally helpful to people without access to their own wifi. I think the better solution is to have more places with free wifi at night so people don’t have to congregate in the one small area.
There aren’t many places the unhoused are allowed to exist in public and cutting them off from essential services only makes it harder for them to better their situation.
Internet should already be a human right at this point. It’s a treasure trove of information that really catapults someone who has access to it ahead of someone who doesn’t, meaning internet access is definitely an index of (in)equality.
to better their situation
Well, that is, assuming they want to. Some, definitely. Long term loiterers, not so sure.
So we should take away something that is necessary to someone helping themselves (have you tried to apply for a job or take a class without using the internet recently, it’s required), just because some people don’t care about living in squalor?
If all they are doing is “loitering” to use the internet, then they aren’t doing anything wrong. It sounds like the problem is simply the number of people and the neighbors didn’t approve. In that case, the truly win/win option is to provide greater access points to free wifi so people don’t have to congregate in one small area. This outcome only hurts people.
People who are addicted or who have given up to that degree are less likely to want help if they think real life can only be totally miserable for them (like, “the world is unbearable, there’s nothing good left for me except [drug name here]”). Same reason people who are depressed turn to drinking. Making the lives of unsheltered people even worse, thus making drugs more appealing in comparison, is counterproductive. And the longer they’re stuck in that, the more that’ll just feel like what life is to them.
Maybe people who don’t want to, or don’t act like they want to, better their situation actually would if they could see any hope for it, and if the path looked more doable and less like scaling mount everest with a broken leg.
I think anybody can think of times they didn’t want to do something that would benefit them - clean a house, do their homework, go to work in the morning - and other times that the situation was different and so it was much easier to do.
California wants to help the homeless but they also don’t want to pay for drug treatment, safe injection sites, or psychiatric centers.
California does, right wingers in California do not and they pay MASSIVE amounts of money for advertising campaigns to misrepresent drug treatment, safe injection sites, and psychiatric centers as free drugs and won’t somebody think of the children???
Do you want one of THOSE people to be getting help next door to you? Oh the horror! Don’t you know that junkies sneak off in the night, into your homes in order to stab your children with drug filled needles??? Do you have any idea what it’s like to be near a psychiatric center? I do. My brother’s nieces cousins uncle twice removed on her mother’s side told me that the crazies like to kidnap your children and vandalize your house.
Where did I put my pearls? I’m in desperate need of clutching them.
/Dripping Sarcasm Also source: I live in CA
The town nearest to me has free wifi on its main street AFAIK. Can see it being very useful for homeless people.
Publicly funded but not for the public.
And before anyone makes a comment about the unhoused probably not paying taxes … neither do any of the children or retirees who use the service every single day of the year.
We’ve pretty much just abandoned any concept of citizenship or civic responsibility…
getting a “protect my property value” vibes from this policy. Governing systems should focus first on lifting up our most vulnerable, and people selling houses just isnt it.
Yeah, what the fuck are we paying taxes for if not to help those who aren’t or can’t?
It’s only getting turned off at night, not completely disallowing them from using it. I don’t see what the problem is. I can’t go and take out a book at 1am, I shouldn’t also be allowed to use their WiFi.
you could check out an ebook using their services if you had access to wifi
I live in a rural area without broadband access. Any quality broadband access. During the pandemic, kids sat in their parents’ cars (typically after they got home from work) to do their remote-learning homework in front of the public library to get free access to decent connection speeds AND access the library files electronically (for California check here https://www.library.ca.gov/services/to-libraries/ebooks-for-all/ - every state has an equivalent ). People, including kids, check out books (and periodicals) electronically 24/7.
It was shocking to me just how prevalent lack of broadband is. I moved in with my in-laws in norcal midway through the pandemic and the only internet service choices were a 600Kbps DSL line or Verizon mobile hotspots at 3-5Mbps (which is a massive blessing in comparison). I worked remotely and would frequently have to drive to Target or a coffee shop in town to download anything. They aren’t even in that rural an area - there were houses about half a mile away with gigabit cable. The cable company wanted nearly $70,000 to build out a line.
Not exactly the same but similar… There’s 4 major providers who service my area, but only one of them extends down my block. So I can choose from DSL (which to be fair goes up to like 35 Mbps), but if I want higher, I’m vendor locked to Xfinity, who charges at least 2x the price of the local companies.
Ive asked several times, but they quote hundreds of thousands of dollars to trench fiber down my street, and it’s just not worth it.
Except, you know, there’s already fiber from Xfinity… They just wont share.
The physical cabling needs to be government owned and rented out to the companies, not exclusively owned by one single company. We’ll never have competitive pricing unless it’s nationalized infrastructure
Yeah same here. It’s either xfinity or satellite internet. Nothing else.
Nearest Target to me is an hour away. I really thought our one local bank surely had wifi (no, of course a bank doesn’t have wifi, silly, security too big a risk, duh). It’s our little teeny 1930s public library or nothing. So this San Francisco story hit me square in the chops as something like that here would take away our only free access point. Why would anybody do that?!?
Good lord. The pandemic shutdowns sucked for me (I have two kids myself), but the more I hear about other people’s experiences, the more I realize I really lucked out.
Why not? It cost them next to nothing to leave it on. It actually is more work to turn off and on the router every day. I don’t see why not being to check out books had to do with internet. Why does it have to be all or nothing?
I would guess all commercial routers and access points hae the option to automate something like that. So you only have to set it up once and it’s not really much work (unless something breaks)
Yeah but that requires even less effort to automate than manually turning it off and on. But the point is why put in the effort at all to do this? I mean rhetorically because I know everyone just wants to push the homeless to “anywhere but here”
Exactly this. A housed, or unhoused person, can’t use the library 24/7, so why should there be an exception for Wi-Fi at night?
because it costs $0 and unhoused people deserve access to education and resources at night same as those who are housed and have their own wifi?
this isnt about the wifi anyway, it’s an attempt to chase homeless people out of populated areas bc rich people are scared to be confronted with the human cost of their actions.
you’re fucking disgusting. i wish you the worst things.
Please don’t attack and insult each other. Give the other user the benefit of doubt and assume good faith even if it comes alongside ignorance. You’re free to ask questions to get them to clarify their point if you think they’re spreading hate speech but please wait for unambiguous intolerance before launching off on someone 💜
i’m like the barest thread away from homelessness. i don’t think it’s fair to tone police me down when people are expressing disgust about people in a position i’ll probably be in when i’m too old to pay my bills with unwanted subsistence sex work. when people are supporting measures designed to make life more hostile for people like that.
people who express disgust about unhoused people, and believe it’s okay to throttle their already super limited access to society, are lost causes. that’s violent instigation against people who can’t defend themselves and these attitudes get. people. killed.
it’s weird how even spaces on fedi require that you Politely and Respectfully Debate people who lead with genocidal intent. think about who was impolite or intolerant first. think about whether anything i said was “unprovoked.” anyway speaking of tolerance i have none for environments that aren’t safe for poor and unhoused folk and it’s, all things considered, unsurprising that a model based on reddit ended up being, predominantly, another That.
best of luck and goodbye i guess. you can have the genocide people or you can have their victims but you can’t have both.
I’m not sure if you’re already gone and I tried to make it as clear as possible that I didn’t think you were wrong. I understand this can read as tone policing, I was just asking for you to drop the very final part of your post because the other person didn’t directly attack you and could have been coming from a place of ignorance. It’s not on you to educate them either. To be clear I wasn’t going to take any negative action on you and I didn’t remove your post either because I believe both of those would be tone policing. But it’s also really hard to have a place where people feel welcome and think it’s nice while also explicitly being a safe space- in fact this is proof that for some people it might not work. My read on this person was that they were uninformed, not that they were necessarily attacking you. Their post consisted of nothing more than a question which comes from the ignorance and privilege of never being homeless. Yes, they might be an asshole worthy of scorn, I’m mostly just asking we confirm someone’s a Nazi before we start punching.
If you’re still around and want to talk in more depth about this let me know. I’m sorry I failed you 😔
I agree with you. I also agree with her. At the same time, you are correct, it was unprovoked and this was the correct mod action (not that you need my approval or anything, I just an really happy to see mods step in on stuff like this).
Thank you for making Beehaw such a wonderful place <3 I have never enjoyed social media as much as I have in the past 2 days or so.
Not the person you are replying to, but that’s really uncalled for. It’s a difference of opinion and none of us are in the position of decision making for the San Francisco Public Library.
A better policy would be for the city to provide universal Wi-Fi access across the city, instead of putting the burden on one public entity in one part of the city.
To be fair, several of these responses have been pretty disgusting in their disregard for homeless people. Also, why is it “unhoused” now and not “homeless”. Seems like the semantics are something George Carlin would have fun with.
I’m not sure what their preferred would be. Homeless, unsheltered, unhoused, I guess it would be important to find out from them. Homeless might be a misnomer as some of them may find that anywhere is their home? Not sure, not my space
I’ve been homeless. We didn’t give a fuck. Call us whatever as long as it’s not insulting.
what people call you and how you’re referred to affects how you’re treated, directly. this is why propaganda works. i’d like to think carlin would understand that fucking around with marginalized groups trying to better their perception and situation is probably not super cool, and that it’d be much more chill to go after the powerful assholes doing the marginalizing. but who knows.
the word homeless has stigma attached thanks to movies, tv, politicians, news. unhoused drops alot of that stigma. removing that stigma is important in the interest of allowing people to feel empathy for those affected rather than fear. i still slip every now and again but the rationale makes sense and i’m trying to do better.
I’m guessing you’ve never seen the bit where Carlin goes from Shell Shocked -> Battle Fatigued -> Operational Exhaustion -> Post-Traumatic Stress Disorder. The whole thing about changing these terms is it tends to undermine the seriousness of the issues being discussed. And the marginalized people that are effected.
I was with you until the end there. Really uncalled for to call someone disgusting and wish harm upon them because they have a different opinion than yours.
If you read the article, it’s not about rich people seeing homeless folks, it’s about vandalism and open drug use on the sidewalks. You don’t have to be rich or white to feel uneasy while stepping over bodies sprawled out on the sidewalk or walking by human waste and needles in the bushes the next morning.
Perhaps there’s a middle ground like keeping the Wi-Fi on but requiring login with a (free) library card.
if your opinion is, it’s correct to chase homeless people out of the few spaces they have access to, being told you’re an anti-social monster who doesn’t deserve anything good until you fix your revolting black heart, is getting off super easy.
opinions on how to best reorganize urban settings to promote access to parks and public transportation? i’ll be respectful. “opinions” that displace and kill people? they create complicity in murder and violence and you deserve to be absolutely and firmly cast out of any meaningful discussion.
if you’re uncomfortable with unhoused people existing, go do some activism. when enough of you murderous clowns come around and something gets done to house these people, great. we’re good. until then, shut the fuck up you monster, they hang out in populated spaces as means of survival, not to inconvenience dumb privileged slobs like you.
there’s no middle ground or space for debate here in ethical or pragmatic terms. your behaviour is disgusting and violent. it doesn’t matter that you’re too stupid or selfish to know or care.
Congrats, you’re one of the first lunatics I’ve seen since joining the Fediverse!
Just a reminder that Jello Biafra from the San Francisco group Dead Kennedys wrote a song called Kill The Poor, satirizing the heartless attitudes even back in 1980. He also ran for mayor of SF. Part of his platform was businessmen in downtown would have to wear clown suits. Would have been great if he had won.
hahahahah i know little bits about biafra’s delightful weirdness. i’d rather see a well-meaning bonkers ass joke mayor than a serious one who gets a bunch of people killed on purpose
The reason the library isn’t open 24/7 is that it’s expensive to keep paying people to staff it for so many more hours, plus those are hours you’d have to pay even more because working at night sucks. The WiFi access point doesn’t have those issues. You can leave it on and help people for almost no money.
Right, they don’t close the library at night because they have some moral objection to people checking out books at 1AM, it’s just a question of how to allocate their resources. I believe some public libraries, such as Salt Lake City, are experimenting with staying open 24/7.
I can’t go and take out a book at 1am
I can. My library has online services like ebook rentals that can be accessed 24/7.
absolutely no reason to do this other than to make the lives of people without housing harder.
Seems like the white thing to do
What crime is being committed while unhoused folks are online? Cybercrime? Are they pretending to be Nigerian princes?
Read the article, the problem isn’t their online activities but the wifi attracting them to cluster outside the library building. The residents don’t want the homeless hanging around outside the library and turning off the wifi would reduce their incentive to be there.
Maybe instead of taking things away, we should be providing tax funded public wifi in more places. The internet isn’t a luxury anymore, and those without homes still have a right to access it (yeah even at night).
brilliant. it’s practically a utility at this point; i hate going places and seeing weird shitty scam ‘freeATTwifi’ everywhere. public internet now.
Sure, but that’s not the responsibility of the library in question. This article is great, an obvious victim and an obvious villain for easy consumption and allegiance, but there’s definitely more to the story. If the homeless are making the lives of the library staff a living hell then I don’t see a problem with this honestly.
The actions of the library are cowardly and the justifications of the residents in the area are abhorrent. God forbid we do something to help those in need, let’s just push them out of sight instead.
The residents don’t want the homeless hanging around outside the library and turning off the wifi would reduce their incentive to be there.
i mean bluntly, sucks to be them? but get over it. homeless people are people too! the obvious solution is to provide them with social services first if this is the objection (which, to be clear, it generally isn’t–it’s that homeless people exist and aren’t out of mind)
classic nimby bs. what they dont realize of course is that getting rid of wifi isnt gonna stop them from congregating, theyll just congregate elsewhere
Which is the point. That’s a win for the NIMBYs who got this policy enacted. It’s literally no longer in their backyard.
Is existing outside of the library a crime?
There are so many problems with this.
Far too many homeless people, there is so much wealth in this nation, there is no reason we cannot provide ample shelter. This probably is going to continue to become worse with the disproportionate wealth distribution and the continual increase in use or automation and AI.
Additionally, we should have broader access to wifi, specifically for those who are homeless and need access to online resources, so they can eventually no longer be homeless. Seems like a great federal program opportunity, if we actually want people to be able to recover from being homeless. No one is going to become homeless or stay homeless because of the badass government subsidized wifi.
This seems incredibly self perpetuating on the cities behalf. It’s like making places uncomfortable to sleep upon… Why not invest that money into someplace people can goto sleep and get the assistance they need to exist in society.
Yeah the treatment of the homeless is crazy as hell to me, why kick someone when they’re down? You try finding a job when you can’t find a good place to sleep, a decent place to take shelter from rain or heat, restricted access to the internet and restaurants refusing to give you leftovers. Shit sucks. It was hard enough to find my next job after I got laid off and I fortunately had a month off expenses saved. Imagine if it took me just a little bit longer to find a job and that I didn’t have any friends with room in their house. I would be homeless.
I agree internet, shelter, food and basic medical need to be considered a human right, if you want a productive society wouldn’t you want to help the people getting left before so they can contribute?
This article has a great deep dive on how we have so few “free” or community-sourced places in the US that they often get used as a catch-all for any and all social problems we have. See: libraries as homeless shelters. From the article:
What’s happened is we’ve stigmatized our public spaces, because we’ve done so little to address core problems that we’ve turned them into spaces of last resort for people who need a hand. And as we do that, we send another message to affluent, middle-class Americans, and that is: If you want a gathering place, build your own in the private sector. So we have a lot of work to do.
That’s a great point – by making public places the only places you can exist while poor, you push all the homeless there and everyone else ends up avoiding it and going to places they have to spend money at. Enforced consumption.
Picnic in the park? Sorry, tent city there. Better go to a restaurant instead.
Baseball at the diamond? Needles and excrement, let’s go bowling instead.
Grab some books from the library? Someone’s smoking crack in the bathroom, I’ll just buy the book from a store. Or Amazon.
Ideally these public spaces would be for everyone, but more and more they’re repurposed for social services.
Obvious solution: stop making people homeless.
Full disclosure: I work in a library shelving materials.
This take overlooks one of the factors that really needs to be addressed: mental illness. I have seen people without full control of their faculties outright refuse assistance because for whatever reason they believe that what they are being offered isn’t good for them. Some of them want help, but some of those also want help on their terms, which is not how a lot of social/outreach programs work. And that’s not even getting into the issues of substance abuse that act as a black hole for any material gain. Granted, there are people who will jump through any hoop to escape being homeless, but many who suffer the most really need more than just a place to live; they need to completely overhaul their lives, and our social system isn’t currently designed to do that.
Literally everything is easier if you have a door you can lock and a roof over your head. Even if it doesn’t get you all the way.
I think if people “want help on their terms”, social/outreach programs should be designed to actually be appealing to those people and less restrictive, where possible. This might include stuff like, for example, allowing homeless folks to bring their dog with them into shelters, or just trying not to impose unnecessarily on their lives and autonomy (beyond what’s needed for safety of others) and not making help conditional where it doesn’t need to be (e.g. you can have a roof only if you get off this drug and take a weekly drug test, else you get the boot and can sleep in the snow again), because that’ll just feel like bullying/coersion and make them want to listen even less. Everybody’s more likely to do a thing if it’s an ask or an offer, and not a demand with an " or else" threat attached.
Adding onto this, you can’t really overhaul your entire life unless you have a place to live.
I’m speaking from the other side, I spent some time homeless, and I agree with you. Some people do need more than just a place to live. They need mental health treatment, they need assistance with their drug dependency. They need professional help.
But, it’s also impossible for someone to consistently get professional help unless they have a consistent place to rest their head.
Because again, I am agreeing with you, but the part I disagree in is the order of where mental illness comes in. Because I reckon for a lot of homeless folk, they start off fine, and then the trauma of the situation sends them completely mentally loose. I was lucky to have the internet and my friends to keep me stable enough, and even I have plenty of screws lost now.
It’s a hard issue to solve, and I genuinely think it’ll take decades of actual effort (not half measures) to see some actual gain. And homelessness is literally ingrained into an economy of winners and losers. Because it is a lot more than just stop making people homeless at this point.
Everything is pay for use.
Not quite to aggressive architecture levels of dickishness, but still.
it’s the exact same thing imo :(
Our local library, which is usually really great, started playing loud classical music at the entrance after hours to shoo away the unhoused. I’m glad they stopped doing that after a couple months; that’s lowered my usually-high opinion of them.
nothing drives me more insane than artificial restrictions placed on digital technology that could otherwise be infinitely helpful
this is symptomatic of how genuinely subhuman American society at-large treats homeless people, even though it is trivial in American society to become homeless. one wrong bill, one bad week, or one day of being in the wrong place is enough–and yet it is completely accepted that something of that sort happening to you places you into a class unworthy of rights and basic services afforded to others. it’s absurd!
I am not American so I can’t claim to know about the causes of homelessness there, but I think this is because the homeless can generally be sorted into two categories. One is, as you mentioned, the people who unfortunately encountered financial trouble and lost their home. These people are legally homeless but usually invisible, because they move in with their friends and family or live in their car. They are generally able to financially provide for themselves and will eventually have a home again. Society is very empathetic to this group and there is a lot of support for them, but they’re not what people think of when homelessness is discussed.
The public perception of homelessness is the second type of visible and persistently homeless people, the ones you see on the streets. They suffer from mental disorders and drug addiction, so they lack a support network, cannot provide for themselves normally and will often turn to crime to survive. It’s not unexpected that people see this group as “assaults people in public”, “attracts crime”, “leaves trash and needles around” and lose empathy for them. Now I’m not an expert on this issue and this categorization is obviously a generalization, but it helps to understand why people hold certain perspectives in this debate.
this is less of a dichotomy than i think is described here, though: almost all people in the second category were at one point people in the first and end up there because the support described in the first category disappears. when you become homeless, that frequently means you lose almost everything–and it’s really, really hard to build up from nothing in modern society because the expectation is that you have money to survive, and there’s only so far people are willing to pay your way forward with that expectation.
(there’s also the reality that even if you have something, there’s only so long you can make that last without a job–and for a homeless person getting one can be functionally impossible, no matter how menial. housing is also catastrophically expensive, so even if they clear the job hurdle once they’re down, the housing one may be likewise impossible to clear. this treadmill is a big part of why so many people become visibly and persistently homeless)
As someone who deals with homeless and near homeless a lot you’re absolutely right. Our system constantly fails the most vulnerable by not providing then with support when they have none. I do my best to provide them with contacts to resources and social workers but those resources are incredibly limited and I’m sure most end up without help regardless.
Sounds like a great place to take a piss
I just want to say Mission Local is pretty freakin cool for being one of the last remaining newspapers that does their own independent journalism.
For all those times I was going to commit a crime, but the WiFi was out.
Yes, why provide free internet access to check their email and maybe get a reply to their job applications? Better keep them out of work /s
Being honest, I kinda get it. Sure your building is for public use but just because its for public use doesn’t mean it’s a housing complex
housing complex? you’re equating people using wifi outside of a library at night with it being a housing complex?
this is just another effort by another city to chase unhoused people out of an area, rather than, oh i dunno, building a mother fucking housing complex.
your attitude is toxic and it disgusts me. we dont provide housing, and people like you complain and moan about unhoused folk to the point that we have cops chasing them around the city and no way for them to meaningfully interface with the rest of the world. fuck off.
this is just another effort by another city to chase unhoused people out of an area, rather than, oh i dunno, building a mother fucking housing complex.
the bar is actually much lower here technically, because an easy solution would be to just provide the service generally. you don’t even need housing to solve this specific facet of the “problem” (although nobody should be homeless and we should build housing and rehouse them, to be clear!)
