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Maybe this deserves its own post but I’ll just put it here, it is one of his replies in that thread
Still thinking about how the people of Ukraine are simultaneously teenagers being sent to die (by me) and filthy Nazis who deserve it anyway. So much mental gymnastics to avoid the most basic moral questions, like “who is invading who”
I mean, would it be better if the teenage soldiers commanded by the Nazis went on to continue to commit the same crimes? There is literaly nothing inconsistent about the Ukrainian population being victims of the Nazis part of the Ukrainian population because as it turns out the Ukrainian nazis literally got into power through a coup, what the fuck is a maidan anyway right?
But anyway the most obvious and offending part of this shit post is imagine the date is April 1945 and you are suddenly worried and pearl clutching if the Nazi government, the SS and Hitler really deserve to be exterminated, I mean it is not like there was an SS Panzer division literally made of mostly teenagers anyway right?
History began in 2022 has a different meaning here.
How could they be Nazis when they’re doing Volkssturm? Checkmate tankies!
Good lord that triggered an adrenaline surge just now because this statement actually pops up every now and then and you just know WHY its brought up but then a lot of liberals will go “what an interesting ethical quandary 🤔🤔🤔” .
I have never seen it fail to derail a conversation.
So much mental gymnastics to avoid the most basic moral questions, like “who is invading who”
This is just bad faith. There has been so much ink spilled about NATO aggression and the material causes of the war that it could fill an entire library. We have spend over a year meticulously citing our sources and supporting our claims.
All for this dipshit just to go “la-la-la I can’t hear you!” and have a meltdown about context being Russian propaganda. He refuses to listen. He refuses to learn. His brain just shuts down and he goes on and on smugly bloviating about the same tired thought-terminating cliches like a broken record.
We’ve addressedd the “who is invading who” question a thousand times over. We’ve explained again and again why such an infantile framing of the war is incompatible with any serious discussion of it.
Just because you ignore the answers doesn’t mean they don’t exist.
Ironically, there are literally many Hitler Youth style places where children are indoctrinated to be Nazis and also to be soldiers
But also this is moronic because no one thinks Ukraine is even mostly Nazis, it’s just that the Nazis seem to have a lot of power
There does seem to be a large cultural consensus of Nazism with all the banderite monuments and street names and all that with minimal pushback internally. Unfortunately the Nazism has breached containment and has spread through indoctrination, education, media, popular Ukrainian culture - all this happened before the invasion so they can’t blame it on being victims of Russia
I would say it’s seriously equivalent to Nazi Germany, where a plurality of the population did support Nazism
That’s true enough, but some things like Bandera do probably have a different meaning to civilian Ukrainians, especially the younger ones, than they do to us, in no small part due to the whitewashed and promotion of Bandera by the government.
Fascists believing their heroes were epic and good doesn’t stop them being fascists
A non-fascist can believe a fascist was good if they were miseducated on them
Hbomb who went out of his way to remind people that he wants the DPRK to be nuked. Genocidal british fuck
Really? That’s fucked.
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Where? Regardless, it is pretty fucked to say you support “multilateral military intervention in the state”, and still call yourself a leftist.
Best I can find is this https://twitter.com/hbomberguy/status/985349775330627590?lang=fa Which is nice, though the framing of immediately going defensive and specifying you are not a “DPRK stan” is cowardly and accepts liberal disavowing bs thrown at other leftists as legitimate
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Well that’s nice. Wish he didn’t relapse like this
Lenin hit the nail on the fucking head with The Renegade Kautsky.
He would be Sieg-heiling if NATO told him to do it
Siding with Nazis to own the Tankies
There’s literally Nazis on both sides.
And honestly who even cares? Russia has Nazis? Great, shoot them, too.
Russia does have Nazis, but they’re all fighting for Ukraine.
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Not sure what you’re talking about because the Duma consists of United Russia, the communists, and a few other parties that are tiny and irrelevant.
Can you explain how it will benefit the world’s workers if NATO wins this war? Because I can easily explain how the world’s workers will benefit from a NATO defeat.
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that map
Tfw even the Zionist Entity is on the good side but the
still votes for evil.
One side has criminalized nazis within their military ranks and the other side hasn’t
Or did you miss all those Russian interrogation videos that shows russian troops strip searching POWs for sign of nazi tattoos
What am I saying of course you missed it, cause actaully engaging with reality or the evidence is toxic to liberals these days
Russia has a underground nazi problem, Ukraine is a nazi state, get the fuckin difference
So you’d say that you uncritically support a capitalist state?
No one here unironically supports capitalist Russia uncritically
We’re reading different comments my friend.
Nope, everyones reading the same comments, you’re just being an obtuse little troll and intentionally misconstruing what everyone is telling you
That’s totally on you
Recognizing that one side winning the war will benefit the cause of communism and the other won’t is not the same as uncritical support.
Explain how one capitalist country moving their de jure border a couple hundred miles at the cost of thousands of lives advances the cause of global communism, because I ain’t seeing it.
so they should just allow the hegemonic capitalist empire to spread nazism and install puppet governments in all the nations around them and slowly balkanize and rip their country apart for a 2nd looting?
The US has attempted to throw coups in almost every nation bordering Russia in the last decade. Russia stopped them in Syria, Kazakhstan and Belarus but failed to stop them in Ukraine. The current Ukrainian government are Maidanite fascist putschists and puppets of America. They are being used as proxies to destroy russia, doing ethnic cleansing on the borders to provoke russia. Their state is illegitimate. Their borders don’t matter and aren’t sacred. Those regions want to leave after being oppressed by the Galician fash for 8 years while the western world looked on and did nothing except perfidiously buy time to give more tanks to nazis
I don’t exactly want Russia’s current particular brand of ideology to be spread either. I just don’t see how you can look at this conflict and think either side are the “good” guys. Or how either result will be better than the other.
You aren’t seeing it because you haven’t been paying attention.
I didn’t write the following, but it is a good summary as to why it should be the position of Marxists and leftists in general to critically support Russia especially with respect to the SMO. It was a response to someone else naively saying they just didn’t like war in general and this war is just one capitalist state fighting a proxy war against another, similar to what you’re saying. While it’s understandable to feel that way, given the amount of propaganda you’re force-fed, it is not materialist and it is completely failing to see the bigger picture. The person who wrote the response is @[email protected].
and this struggle is between two capitalist empires which both want to do more capitalism, so there’s no benefit to either side winning
I keep seeing this take cropping up in online Western leftist circle and to be very honest, I always consider this to be the laziest takes on war for people claiming to be on the left.
This is no different than saying that there is no difference for the left when it comes to whether the North or the South wins in the American Civil War because neither of them was socialist. Well, would it surprise you that Marx wrote an entire collection of essays just on analyzing the American Civil War?
To quote Lenin from his Lecture on “The Proletariat and the War”, October 1 (14), 1914:
For a Marxist clarifying the nature of the war is a necessary preliminary for deciding the question of his attitude to it. But for such a clarification it is essential, first and foremost, to establish the objective conditions and concrete circumstances of the war in question. It is necessary to consider the war in the historical environment in which it is taking place, only then can one determine one’s attitude to it. Otherwise, the resulting interpretation will be not materialist but eclectic.
Depending on the historical circumstances, the relationship of classes, etc., the attitude to war must be different at different times. It is absurd once and for all to renounce participation in war in principle. On the other hand, it is also absurd to divide wars into defensive and aggressive. In 1848, Marx hated Russia, because at that time democracy in Germany could not win out and develop, or unite the country into a single national whole, so long as the reactionary hand of backward Russia hung heavy over her.
In order to clarify one’s attitude to the present war, one must understand how it differs from previous wars, and what its peculiar features are.
We can write entire essays about the war in Ukraine, and it is anything but “a war between American and Russian capitalists”.
For one, if this is about Russia expanding its capital, why is the Russian Central Bank doing everything it can (including rate hikes and devaluing the ruble) to undermine Putin’s effort to achieve economic self-sufficiency in the face of unprecedented sanctions, and directly aiding the Western imperialist cause? If anything, it is stifling the expansion of Russian capital.
Such narrative crumbles at the slightest inspection of what is actually going on within the Russian political and economic structures, and points to a more fundamental division that Michael Hudson had pointed out regarding the conflict between finance vs industrial capitalism.
And we’re not even getting to the wider geopolitical implications of the war in Ukraine yet - what does it mean for Western imperialism? The anti-colonial struggles of the Global South? The effects on global financial institutions (IMF, World Bank, WTO) and the efforts to decouple from such oppressive structures (which is what de-dollarization is all about).
We have to ask ourselves, what would a fascist victory in Ukraine mean for left wing movements in Eastern Europe? What could the total subjugation of Russia - a country that has large scale military equipments, raw resources and minerals, and agricultural products - to Western capital mean for the anti-colonial movements in the Global South?
Leftists who refuse to apply a materialist and historical method to understand the world’s events will inevitably fail to see the underlying currents of the global state of events, and as such they cannot predict where the world is heading and will not be able to position themselves to take advantage of the impending crisis.
After all, it was WWI that resulted in an explosion of socialist movements within the imperialist European states, why? Because the socialists back then actually combined theory and practice (what Gramsci referred to as praxis) to take advantage of the predicament.
How do rate hikes signal that Putin is being undermined by the central bank? Don’t most countries attempt to raise capital in the short term during wars? “Buy War Bonds!” and all that. If anything, isn’t that a signal that capital is being consolidated in the state in order to devote to war effort?
But I want to ask you the other side of a question you raised: what happens to left wing movements in Eastern Europe if Russia completely annexes Ukraine? It creates a migration crisis and a new “threat” on the eastern border. That’s not a clear-cut W for the communists like you’re making it out to be. We already know how Europeans react to these sorts of things, and it hasn’t been good for the communists.
ProxyTheAwesome and Frank already covered all the points I have and I can’t think of anything to add.
Multipolarity
sO yOu’D sAy tHAt yOu uNcRitIcAlY sUPPOrt a cApITaLIst sTaTe
Seriously? That’s the best you got dipshit, you can only speak in accusations and thought-terminating cliches? Get a grip motherfucker, liberals like you are reason neo-nazism has been so normalized
I’m not the one rooting for the capitalists to beat the other capitalists.
Is that supposed to be a own? Yes I prefer Russian capitalists defeating Ukrainian nazis, so Russian communists don’t have to face both western backed Russian and Ukrainian nazis
Again get a grip you nazi supporting motherfucker
I don’t understand your position. So, in the event of an imminent second Russian revolution, your supposition is that Ukrainians would be a significant counterrevolutionary force and that the US wouldn’t intervene militarily, and so if there are fewer Ukrainians, there’s more likely to be a successful second communist revolution in Russia in the near future?
And you think this is a reasonable take to have. And that it’s the land border with NATO that would be the big issue in a military conflict with the US?
This is such a bonkers take to have in light of the absurd probabilities involved. You’re like a chud who buys a gun because you think you’re going to take on the Marines.
palestine (capitalist) and iran (capitalist) should destroy israel (fascist)
Even if you assume this is just an interimperialist war, its basic Leninism for western communists to support and propagandize for the defeat of your own imperialist bloc in that war.
America’s been losing wars for a long time and no socialist project has ever erupted from it.
Revolutionary defeatism doesn’t seem to work very well.
Vietnam turned a majority of Americans against the military for a number of years and gave black radicals enough room to create the Black Panther Party and end legally sanctioned segregation.
Was that worth the lives of all the Vietnamese, Laotians, and Cambodians who were killed, or the generations afterwards who died from unexploded ordinance or birth defects? I don’t think that’s such a clear cut “yes”.
Point being that non-interventionism would have been preferable, which is the position I’ve been taking all along.
Losing wars how? Sure they’re technical defeats but they get the job done and create regions ripe for hyper exploitation.
And how will this war be any different in that respect? Russia’s not aiming to annex all of Ukraine. The remaining rump state will be even more vassalized than before, win or lose.
Here it is, the chauvinism I knew you had exposed by your own hand
The fact that you’re the only person who brought the term “uncritically” into it goes to show how much work you have to do to make up a position to be smug towards.
i critically support them destroying NATO Nazi militaries on their border
Capitalism is a spectrum
Lemm.ee ass comment
Aren’t Russia attempting to dissolve Wagner and killed all the main leaders (including neo Nazi Dimitry Utkin) in the Wagner plane crash on August 23rd this year, after the attempted Wagner coup? Tell me when Ukraine will do anything similar to Azov. And no, their half arsed integration of them into the Ukrainian armed forces does not count. Last time Zelenskyy tried to get the fash to stand down, before the war started in earnest, he got embarrassed on camera. Russia has a problem with Nazis and fascists, but it’s not nearly as big as Ukraine’s Nazi problem. There is no way someone like Bandera would be viewed as a national hero in Russia.
Still waiting for a source on their being nazis on the Russian side. People keep alleging this, but never provide any evidence.
In b4 Dmitry Utkin
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who got purged and killed by putin lmao
The mercenary group named after Hitler’s favorite composer aren’t Nazis?
Some of y’all actually uncritically support Russia, huh?
Wild.
Richard Wagner died before the Nazi party existed, he wasn’t a nazi. I have no idea why Wagner group was named that - tbh a ton about Wagner is very mysterious. But no, I’ve never seen any evidence that Wagner group were Nazis.
I despise a whole lot about the post-Soviet government of Russia. But yeah, I completely support Russia in their noble war of self-defense against the fascist “west.” And that’s is, afaik, basically the majority opinion on this website. What the fuck are you doing here lib?
I haven’t looked up Wagner in a while. I don’t think I ever ran in to why it’s called that.
afaik, basically the majority opinion on this website.
Afaik most people treat this as an “Enemy of my Enemy” thing. NATO is much, much worse than Russia. This war can weaken NATO. NATO winning is very, very bad because it reinforces NATO/US hegemony and would give NATO access to vast new natural resources as they carve up Russia, to say nothing of the massively increased risk of nuclear war as Russia disintegrates. A victory for Russia, especially a decisive victory, could greatly weaken NATOs position in the world. That would open up the possibility of multipolarity, which could create space for left movements to grow without being hunted down and destroyed by the US/NATO. It would give China more room to maneuver, as well as less powerful communist states. It might increase the chance of the US balkanizing, which would be horrific for those of us who live here but has a chance of benefiting the world.
Afaik very few people support Russia, but we recognize that a Russian victory is the most desirable outcome of this farce. Preferably sooner than later given the horrific amount of death and destruction.
Things are already badly fucked - Ukraine is firmly in the grip of fascism and the war has greatly advanced the cause of international fascism. It’s strengthened the fascist position across Eastern Europe. The EU and US are both supporting the Double Holocaust narrative openly now. It is likely that weapons from Ukraine will flood Europe over the coming years facilitating terror and violence.
In terms of geopolitics, Russia is the least-bad guys. Nothing more, nothing less.
Things are already badly fucked - Ukraine is firmly in the grip of fascism and the war has greatly advanced the cause of international fascism. It’s strengthened the fascist position across Eastern Europe. The EU and US are both supporting the Double Holocaust narrative openly now. It is likely that weapons from Ukraine will flood Europe over the coming years facilitating terror and violence.
I don’t think you can blame this on the war. This is just something becoming more of itself under pressure/heat. If you put sea water on boil it’s going to become saltier. You can’t blame Russia for the already existing contradictions and fascism of the west coming to a head
I don’t blame Russia. NATO has been working towards this war since it was founded. The war was used to purge dissident elements in Ukraine and has been used as a cause celebre for fascism. That’s all to the advantage of NATO, and NATO instigated the war by constantly pushing strategic encirclement of Russia.
Yeah, basically 100% agree with this.
I’m pretty sure the dominant position is critical support. It’s just that criticism of Russia is not that frequent because discussion of the war with libs is almost always in a context that assumes NATO framing. At least in the news mega people are dunking on the Russians regularly.
This. Libs don’t care that the Communist Party of Russia is a nationalist joke, or that smaller communist groups are largely suppressed, or that the left in Ukraine has been suppressed if not actually liquidated, or that Leftists across eastern Europe are being suppressed by new laws and increasingly brazen fascist regimes. All they care about is the bogus good guys bad guys narratives. They’re openly hostile to the concept of geopolitics or really any complexity at all.
But no, I’ve never seen any evidence that Wagner group were Nazis.
The Wagner Group itself is just a PMC with all that implies, but its subgroup DShRG Rusich are quite openly neo-Nazis.
Wikipedia (edited by NATO friendly nerds) says this group contains “several dozen people”
I completely support Russia in their noble war of self-defense against the fascist “west.”
What is it about Russian capitalism that you like so much? Which of their anti-LGBTQ laws do you find more appealing than the west’s?
Not supporting Ukraine is one thing (which I think is the actual majority opinion on this website), but rooting for Russia is an entirely different thing.
My position is that I do not give a shit who wins because they’re both fascist.
What is it about Russian capitalism that you like so much? Which of their anti-LGBTQ laws do you find more appealing than the west’s?
Nothing, I already established that.
My position is that I do not give a shit who wins because they’re both fascist.
Liberal nonsense. They aren’t. Further, Russia isn’t the global hegemon, they aren’t the power holding up the capitalist-imperialist world system. The US is. In this war, the Ukrainians are US proxies. The victory of Russia over NATO is a good thing for all the oppressed and marginalized people of the Earth. NATO victory would be catastrophic. Honestly, I despise liberals like you so fucking much. Normally I expect shit takes like this from federated shitheads. What are you doing here?
Your position is that Russia is not fascist, is that right?
The mercenary group named after Hitler’s favorite composer aren’t Nazis?
Hitler hated tobacco
We should
y’all
Sir we all know this word is not actually part of your lexicon
I spent the first 18 years of my life in South Louisiana but go off.
GJ, I could feel the restraint it took to end that sentence at ‘off’
what?
Oh I think you’re implying that it took effort for me not to misgender you, maybe? Weird thing to say.
Phenomenal
Edit: So I took the bait. I got beat up. Phenomenal bait.
This ain’t bait. Ukraine is a nazi state backed up by the 4th Reich (NATO). Russia isn’t.
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Every state use violence to sustain itself, not sure why you think this is a particularly interesting own. Russia is a Liberal capitalist state under attack from the global hegemonic empire and its proxies. Just like Gadaffi’s Libya was, or Syria’s Assad, or Sadam’s Iraq. In all these cases, we oppose the American empire in it’s imperialism. You cannot extend the same courtesy to Russia because your brain has been poisoned by 7 years of russiagate hysteria from liberals and 100 years of anti-communist red scare propaganda in your culture
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Only one side has nazis integrated into the military and armed with western weapons
Jerusalem Post included Prigo on its list of 50 influential Jewish people, so I guess Wagner can’t be Nazi
Source?
History started in February 2022. Context is Russian propaganda.
Red Brownwald is a loser himself but the only cowards I see here are Breadtube celebs who mindlessly go along with the official narrative while eagerly joining in on the propaganda hysteria and regurgitating thought-terminating cliches they heard from CNN.
Anyway I’ll wait for the Hbomberguy video where he explains why being in the SS isn’t all that bad actually.
“Being in the SS isn’t all that bad, here is why” Video length: [12:08:43]
Not smug enough.
Title: “Was everyone in the SS evil?”
Thumbnail: (with a shit eating grin) “NO”
First sentence: “In Fritz Lang’s Metropolis…”
Last sentence: “I know that, a few years ago, I said that Dresden deserved it. I just wanted to apologize to the German people for spreading such Russian propaganda. Adolf Hitler was a brave anti-Russian hero and I am so incredibly sorry for tarnishing his good name.”
The guy said he would support NATO military intervention in North Korea, he’s always been like this.
Yeah hbomb guy is a typical western radical liberal lol.
NATO intervention in North Korea
I see we’re at the point of NATO expansion where western “leftists” don’t even know where the NORTH ATLANTIC is anymore.
NATO military intervention in North Korea
They do understand that this would result in Seoul being leveled right? A city larger than NYC would be eradicated.
They don’t care, they’ll fight the DPRK to the last South Korean
Didn’t he rescind that comment?
It was a heated gamer moment
I have no idea. Hopefully
Never ask:
A man his salary
A woman her age
An enby if they are actually just a guy or a girl
A Breadtuber what happened to Rosa
What happened to rosa
german socdems hired protonazis to murder her and the rest of the spartacists
And now the very same party is the second largest supplier of arms to the Ukrainian Nazi militias.
Don’t trust the liberals, they will betray you. 
Well, a successor party is. The old SPD was slaughtered by Nazis along with everyone to the left of the Strassers
True. See the fable of the farmer and the serpent. The radlibs will nurture and accept the fascists thinking that they can control them. And time and again, it backfires.
Uh oh an another breadtuber turns out to be a lib? But my parasocial personality cult said that he was a based commie who literally does nothing wrong and is le working hero despite being a millionaire.
I am always wondering why someone would assume something different. Every breadtuber is a lib until they prove they are actually based. Not the other way around.
After reading this thread, I fully support and advocate for the PRC invasion of all former USSR territories
Including former RSFSR?
No matter how ill considered it may be, it is the duty of every socialist to support a Socialist polity, no matter how flawed or provisional, attacking a non Socialist one. That’s a key part of critical support. It was when Lenin supported the disastrous anarchist revolt, and it was when Rosa supported the Left-KPD revolting 6 months early.
This can sometimes backfire on us if the US supports the socialists, like with the DFNS. But such situations are so rare that I cannot regret supporting the Kurds.
I’ll be honest, I don’t understand the point you are making here
The point is “Yes including the former RSFSR up until it becomes the current RSFSR.” also Yes if Cuba invades Haiti, Lula decides Peru has it coming, or Laos inexplicably launches hidden nukes at New Zealand.
Nuclear war isn’t a great example for this really.
Agreed, I think that was facetious, but either way I don’t think that this principle extends to nuclear first strikes
The anarchist revolt you are referring to was against the Tsardom, right?
Can’t believe a breadtuber would do this
Reminder that Hbomb [CW: rape]
spoiler
covered up one of his employees raping his trans friend
What the fuck? Do you have a source for that? I thought I kept abreast of weird breadtube shit.
oof
💣
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nothing wrong with liking DS 2
This post became one of those threads.
How did this spread not one but two
? LmaoI think its pretty
Insulated libs who won’t ever actually have to fight in the war and supporting the war, name a better combo. Hbomb has always been disappointingly milktoast in his leftism, basically just a treat reviewer with better politics.
Like, Greenwald sucks and is definitely making big asshole equivocations here when he should just be openly pro Russia by now but I suppose he’s got the facade of professionalism to maintain, foolish as it may be
breadtube really had about a 0.5% success rate didn’t it?
same with the chapo-adjacent and copy cat pods, all much more disappointing than the chapos. more radlib, more chauvinist, more succ.
Breadtube was successful in its initial purpose to make meandering videos on the internet to make fun of the most easily rebuked right wingers. It was always just a spectacle. Sorry to sound pessimistic, but it was always like that.
Unless the videos or podcasts are one aspect of a broader movement, they’re just spectacle. I have slightly higher hopes for the Deprogram guys though. They do stuff.
I’m told there’s a huge amount of genuine and hopeful leftist stuff on the Chinese internet. So we should probably all practice our hanzi.
but at least we got probably the worst content ever, cumtown.
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HAHAHAHAHA NATO leftists keep doing NATO leftist things. They should stick to dunking on easy targets like Ben Shapiro or JustPearlyThings. Makes them look morally superior while being able to hide their horrendous foreign policy takes.
