In “who left their bag here”'s case, the gender of the person is not known because their identity isn’t known, so it doesn’t feel strange to use (for us old farts). It can take some effort to retrain your brain to use “they” when it’s a single person whose identity is known (speaking from experience as a Gen Xer).
Or the person might just be a transphobic asshole. But I like to think that most just need to educate themselves on using pronouns correctly.
One thing that might help it feel less strange is realising that you already use a grammatically plural pronoun to refer to individuals all the time: the word “you”. It’s always “you are tall”, not “you is tall”, same as “we” or “they” instead of “he” or “she”. This is because it was historically plural, and “thou” was the singular. Over time we started using the plural to be more polite, and then eventually always using it.
The conjugation of Be, “is” is not used in the second person (you, be it singular or plural) any more than “am” is (“am” is first person singular form.) regardless of the plurality (or lack thereof) in the subject.
The correct Be conjugations for second person subjects are “art” (2nd, singular, archaic) and “are”.
Do you remember your conjugation tables from Spanish or French class?
English has them too, but the modern ones are much smaller than most (all?) other European languages.
Editted in:
Prn. | To be | note
I am 1st person (the speaker) singular.
We are 1st person plural.
Thou art 2nd person (the one being spoken to) singular (archaic).
You are 2nd plural and singular.
(s)he /it is 3rd person (neither the speaker or spoken to) singular.
They are 3rd plural and singular
I think because it’s so small for English and because I’m a native speaker it’s all just second nature and I don’t really know the technicalities. Conjugating verbs in Spanish is one of my most frustrating areas of learning lol.
To convey uncertainty, because the dictionary classification of the word was a bit of a mouthful, and I was only 90% certain that I was interpreting it correctly.
It only feels strange because of how it’s been used previously in my lifetime, not from historical usage. But as you’ve shown, language changes over time, and not having a singular neutral pronoun has proven to be a big omission in English (since “they” has only traditionally been used that way in certain limited cases). If it was good enough for “you,” it’s good enough for “they!”
I mean, I’m mid 30s, and it took me a long time to internalize “he, she, they” rather than “he, she, it”. It’s just how they were used when I was growing up. Fortunately, I’ve had the opportunity to learn and grow. At the end of the day, just speak with respect and make sure you listen as much as, or more than, speak.
I agree. It’s hard to put myself back in the old mindset (and I was definitely not supportive of this type of thing back in pre-2014) but I really do think I used to use “his or her” more often than “their”, or at least in more formal settings.
I remember on Mark Rosewater’s Tumblr blog he ran a Q&A (he is the lead designer of Magic: The Gathering). Someone was asking about cards using “his or her” instead of “their” because not everyone uses he/she pronouns. His response was basically that the reason they did that was because they used the Chicago style guide and it said to use “his or her” when referring to a single person of unknown gender. Basically he said that he understood players have different genders, but it was just a style thing, and that the rules even said something about “his or her” referring to the player (regardless of gender). Since then, I believe Magic cards now use “their”, so it’s possible Chicago’s style guide changed (or at least Wizards’ policy did).
It’s a stupid excuse, use a different style guide going forward that uses “their” to refer to third person.
I’m glad they changed it, I’m still burnt out of the game because of design issues (board wipes, counterspells), repetitive cards with little innovation, and shitty business practices.
I get where you’re coming from, but if you have a problem with the Chicago Manual of Style then you have a problem with me, and I suggest you let that one marinate.
Yeah it can take a while to get used to, especially if you knew the person before they changed their pronouns. But the point is it isnt incompatible with our language at all. I think the last panel would be better if it showed the (transphobic) guy and another person and he says “this activist said the craziest thing to me today” and then the second person says “oh yeah, what’d THEY say” because then the ‘they’ pronoun would be directly referring to the person who wanted to be called ‘they’ in the first place.
Oh yeah it took me a while to default to ‘they’ instead of ‘he/she’ lol
Sometimes I still mess up and assume, and sometimes I say ‘they’ when I don’t mean to also. Brains are weird.
In “who left their bag here”'s case, the gender of the person is not known because their identity isn’t known, so it doesn’t feel strange to use (for us old farts). It can take some effort to retrain your brain to use “they” when it’s a single person whose identity is known (speaking from experience as a Gen Xer).
Or the person might just be a transphobic asshole. But I like to think that most just need to educate themselves on using pronouns correctly.
One thing that might help it feel less strange is realising that you already use a grammatically plural pronoun to refer to individuals all the time: the word “you”. It’s always “you are tall”, not “you is tall”, same as “we” or “they” instead of “he” or “she”. This is because it was historically plural, and “thou” was the singular. Over time we started using the plural to be more polite, and then eventually always using it.
“Thou is tall” sounds weird though.
This made my brain short circuit lol. Can’t believe I never noticed.
That’s because “is” is the third person conjugation of Be, not the second. Of course it sounds weird.
“Thou are”, and the actually correct “thou art” both feel much more natural.
But we’re back to plural, they said thou is singular.
The conjugation of Be, “is” is not used in the second person (you, be it singular or plural) any more than “am” is (“am” is first person singular form.) regardless of the plurality (or lack thereof) in the subject.
The correct Be conjugations for second person subjects are “art” (2nd, singular, archaic) and “are”.
So is thou/you plural or singular? I’m very confused. I’m not a grammar person lol. This conversation began because someone said thou is singular.
Thou is singular and you is plural. Thou art. You are.
Do you remember your conjugation tables from Spanish or French class?
English has them too, but the modern ones are much smaller than most (all?) other European languages.
Editted in:
Prn. | To be | note I am 1st person (the speaker) singular.
We are 1st person plural.
Thou art 2nd person (the one being spoken to) singular (archaic).
You are 2nd plural and singular.
(s)he /it is 3rd person (neither the speaker or spoken to) singular.
They are 3rd plural and singular
I think because it’s so small for English and because I’m a native speaker it’s all just second nature and I don’t really know the technicalities. Conjugating verbs in Spanish is one of my most frustrating areas of learning lol.
Yeah but that’s because you see it in archaic contexts. How do you feel about ‘thou art tall’?
But art sounds like are. Is art singular?
From the dictionary: (archaic) second-person singular simple present indicative of be
So, yes?
Why the question mark?
To convey uncertainty, because the dictionary classification of the word was a bit of a mouthful, and I was only 90% certain that I was interpreting it correctly.
It’s “thee is tall.”
He, she, thee.
Ahhh, that makes so much more sense.
No, that’s incorrect.
It’s “Thou are tall” or “Thou art tall”
Nominative Oblique Possessive Thou Thee Thy/Thine* I Me My/Mine* He Him His She Her Her/Hers** You You Your/Yours*** Used as an object (It is thine) or historically, when the following word started in the vowel (Thine eyes sparkle like diamonds, Mine ears ache)
** Used as an object (it is hers)
Yes I too, read the Wikipedia entry for thou/thee.
Are the Outlander writers just dumb or something then? Or is what you’re referring to (“thou art”) just a different context.
Because in Outlander, the quakers clearly use “thee is” and not “thou art/are”.
Because they use it as the second person singular.
Minor spoilers for latest season of Outlander
Thee is a wolf
I’m joining in the “this blew my mind” sentiment and just want to say thanks for sharing this tidbit of info.
Thee has had thee mind blown?
It only feels strange because of how it’s been used previously in my lifetime, not from historical usage. But as you’ve shown, language changes over time, and not having a singular neutral pronoun has proven to be a big omission in English (since “they” has only traditionally been used that way in certain limited cases). If it was good enough for “you,” it’s good enough for “they!”
I mean, I’m mid 30s, and it took me a long time to internalize “he, she, they” rather than “he, she, it”. It’s just how they were used when I was growing up. Fortunately, I’ve had the opportunity to learn and grow. At the end of the day, just speak with respect and make sure you listen as much as, or more than, speak.
I’m 47 and it just came naturally to me. 🤷
“They” made more sense to me than “it” in the first place.
Come to think of it, I still call babies “it” when I don’t know the gender all the time though.
I agree. It’s hard to put myself back in the old mindset (and I was definitely not supportive of this type of thing back in pre-2014) but I really do think I used to use “his or her” more often than “their”, or at least in more formal settings.
I remember on Mark Rosewater’s Tumblr blog he ran a Q&A (he is the lead designer of Magic: The Gathering). Someone was asking about cards using “his or her” instead of “their” because not everyone uses he/she pronouns. His response was basically that the reason they did that was because they used the Chicago style guide and it said to use “his or her” when referring to a single person of unknown gender. Basically he said that he understood players have different genders, but it was just a style thing, and that the rules even said something about “his or her” referring to the player (regardless of gender). Since then, I believe Magic cards now use “their”, so it’s possible Chicago’s style guide changed (or at least Wizards’ policy did).
It’s a stupid excuse, use a different style guide going forward that uses “their” to refer to third person.
I’m glad they changed it, I’m still burnt out of the game because of design issues (board wipes, counterspells), repetitive cards with little innovation, and shitty business practices.
I get where you’re coming from, but if you have a problem with the Chicago Manual of Style then you have a problem with me, and I suggest you let that one marinate.
Reminder: this was over a decade ago.
Yeah it can take a while to get used to, especially if you knew the person before they changed their pronouns. But the point is it isnt incompatible with our language at all. I think the last panel would be better if it showed the (transphobic) guy and another person and he says “this activist said the craziest thing to me today” and then the second person says “oh yeah, what’d THEY say” because then the ‘they’ pronoun would be directly referring to the person who wanted to be called ‘they’ in the first place.
Oh yeah it took me a while to default to ‘they’ instead of ‘he/she’ lol
Sometimes I still mess up and assume, and sometimes I say ‘they’ when I don’t mean to also. Brains are weird.
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