I just don’t understand how you can “fee” Yellowstone or the Grand Canyon. Those places are huge.
You have a booth on every road?
I don’t believe there’s a single place like that in Finland, what with our everymans rights
Everyman’s rights are the right of every person to use nature regardless of who owns or controls the land. The use of nature within the limits set under the everyman’s rights therefore does not require the permission of the landowner and using the rights does not cost anything.
Yellowstone has limited access by road, but you could hike into it.
The Grand Canyon has visitor’s centers and a few established areas with infrastructure for various activities, but you could hike to it, but getting into the canyon is another matter.
The other thing is that going in by road and paying for a pass let’s people know you are there and if you haven’t come back. Both areas are dangerous and people get in over their head because they have no understanding of the dangers of nature.
Federal or state government owns it depending on the park. And the fee is mainly just to pay for maintenance on the parking area. No one is chatging you to go to yellowstone or the grand canyon. They are charging you to park there or use some special service like guides, campgrounds, or picnic areas. Generally speaking though you can just walk onto any national park without paying anything. Yellowstone is a bit of a special case in certain areas because they really don’t want people wandering around off trail because they’re lible to fall through the ground into a hot spring that will melt their skin off before they get a chance to even scream and then the park rangers need to spend time dredging what little is left of them out of the hot spring. So those areas generally charge people to use the raised wooden trails because of maintenance costs. But at most parks no one is going around checking people for passes. They’re only checking vehicles.
Also the costs are very low if you’re paying at the park. You can also buy an anual pass to literally every US national park for $80. If you’re a senior then you can get a lifetime pass for $80 and an anual pass for $20. There are also all sorts of ways to get those for even more discounted prices.
some company basically owns the rights to do that…?
Usually it’s the federal park service (government agency) that runs the parks, and they’re the ones that take payment. It’s not for-profit, and the fees don’t completely pay for maintenance of the park in most cases, they just offset the cost of so many people going (mostly tourists).
And there’s usually only one or two roads going to the parks (Yellowstone has 3 IIRC), and they’re usually really out of the way, so you’re not going to be able to just walk there. Many parks don’t connect the entrances either, so they’re purely a destination. My brother lives right outside Glacier National Park, and it’s still a good 20 miles from the “city” (Columbia Falls is ~5k people) to the park entrance (again, there are two, one at each end of the park).
Yes, these places are massive, but they’re also really far from normal traffic, so you’d have go at least a half hour out of the way to get there (often multiple hours driving). Someone needs to pay for maintenance of the infrastructure to get there, and that’s what these fees are for.
Sometimes it’s as low as $2 or so, sometimes it’s like $50 (for more popular parks). It gets adjusted to preserve access for those that really want to visit and prevent abuse. Sometimes it’s just a suggested donation.
Yup, for Yellowstone, that’s 3 entrances, so three sets of booths. It’s largely to cut down on traffic (traffic gets really bad as-is) and maintain the infrastructure.
The only reason you’d go to any of the entrances is to visit the park, there are no through roads or anything, and it’s like an hour or two from the major highways, and several hours from a city larger than 10k people (aside from the tourism towns just outside the park). And the traffic to get into the park is backed up for an hour in the morning for people looking to get lucky with extra passes (there’s a maximum capacity).
You can hike in if you like, the passes are only required for cars IIRC.
It’s genuinely hard to imagine how large America is.
And Finland isn’t one of the tiny Central-European countries.
Driving from Fresno to Yellowstone is pretty much the distance it is to drive from where I live (Southern end of Finland) to the Northern end of Finland.
But yeah at the Northern end in Lapland it starts getting more like that, only a few roads going to the larger national parks. Here in the South you can just go around anything really, there’s backroads and footpaths everywhere. Like no matter how deep in the woods I go, I’d feel awkward taking a shit, since there’s always some dogwalkers to be met.
There are areas like that here too. I live next to a few mountains where there see dozens of interconnected trails all largely accessible from an intercity arterial bike path, with free parking near the more popular entrances to the trail network. Much of it is federal land (part of a national forest), but none of it is designated as a national park.
Maybe there’s a two terminology difference here. Here’s the terms we use:
national park - has ranger stations and infrastructure, and usually an entrance fee
state park - same as national park, but at the state level, and lower fees (often free)
regional park - owned either by the state, county, or city, but isn’t designated as a “state park”; may or may not have parking fees, depending on popularity and how developed it is (esp near urban areas)
national forest - designated area, but generally little infrastructure outside of some campgrounds (paid) and semi-curated trails; no entrance/parking fees
BLM land - federally owned, but virtually no infrastructure and no fees; avoid hiking during hunting season so you don’t get mistaken for game
undeveloped state land - like BLM land, but owned by the state
Most of the trails I’m talking about are in the last 3 groups, and they’re all free. Yellowstone, Grand Canyon, and Glacier are all in the first group and all have entrance fees. If you’re “going hiking,” you’ll go on the last four, and the first two are for vacations unless you happen to live right next to one.
Oh. I think for us the first three would be hiking and the last four would just be walking.
But yeah, there’s definitely a difference of terminology, seeing as there’s two completely different languages. But I do take your point.
I don’t know about any trails that have bike paths leading up to them though. I mean, unless you count a road as a bike path. It’s just very much more organic here, you’ve made it into a whole thing that can be used for profit, it seems like. The infrastructure to ours, like duckboards and whatnot are paid for by taxes, but our taxation policies are quite different so we won’t get into that, lol.
There’s no profit here, it’s just a different form of taxation where the users of a service pay more for its upkeep than those who don’t use it. The only time a private org gets involved is if you make a reservation (and even then, many sites use a government agency) or arrange for a guided tour or something.
Everything here is publicly owned, except maybe the handful of hotels that are operated inside Yellowstone (not sure how those work). So whether you’re paying with income tax or park fees isn’t particularly relevant since it’s all federal or state land.
I meant “profit” in the sense of that profit being the taxation. As in, people walking around the park don’t actually cost anything to anyone, so it is profit when you charge people to walk around, but the people wouldn’t be able to come there in the first place were there not the infrastructure which is upheld by said profit.
Well, they do. They leave litter, destroy trails, vandalize formations, etc. Keeping things nice takes a lot of work, especially with how much foot traffic these parks get. Yellowstone gets over 4 million visitors every year, and that’s with the park fees, quotas, etc. Glacier is a bit less popular and still gets around 3 million visitors every year.
National and State parks are funded with both income taxes and park fees. Park fees keep the number of visitors down to a manageable level to preserve the natural beauty.
And walk-ins generally don’t need to pay, though some of the larger parks also have walk-in rates.
OK yeah I’ll admit cleaning up after shitheads does cost, and probably a fair amount because of how famous those places are. (So it’s very much non-locals most of the time, I’d wager.)
I just don’t understand how you can “fee” Yellowstone or the Grand Canyon. Those places are huge.
You have a booth on every road?
I don’t believe there’s a single place like that in Finland, what with our everymans rights
Yellowstone has limited access by road, but you could hike into it.
The Grand Canyon has visitor’s centers and a few established areas with infrastructure for various activities, but you could hike to it, but getting into the canyon is another matter.
The other thing is that going in by road and paying for a pass let’s people know you are there and if you haven’t come back. Both areas are dangerous and people get in over their head because they have no understanding of the dangers of nature.
So by “limited access by road” you mean that “yes, there is a booth on every road leading there”?
So some company basically owns the rights to do that…? Have booths and whatnot on every road leading there?
It’s just… weird for me, is all.
Federal or state government owns it depending on the park. And the fee is mainly just to pay for maintenance on the parking area. No one is chatging you to go to yellowstone or the grand canyon. They are charging you to park there or use some special service like guides, campgrounds, or picnic areas. Generally speaking though you can just walk onto any national park without paying anything. Yellowstone is a bit of a special case in certain areas because they really don’t want people wandering around off trail because they’re lible to fall through the ground into a hot spring that will melt their skin off before they get a chance to even scream and then the park rangers need to spend time dredging what little is left of them out of the hot spring. So those areas generally charge people to use the raised wooden trails because of maintenance costs. But at most parks no one is going around checking people for passes. They’re only checking vehicles.
Also the costs are very low if you’re paying at the park. You can also buy an anual pass to literally every US national park for $80. If you’re a senior then you can get a lifetime pass for $80 and an anual pass for $20. There are also all sorts of ways to get those for even more discounted prices.
Usually it’s the federal park service (government agency) that runs the parks, and they’re the ones that take payment. It’s not for-profit, and the fees don’t completely pay for maintenance of the park in most cases, they just offset the cost of so many people going (mostly tourists).
And there’s usually only one or two roads going to the parks (Yellowstone has 3 IIRC), and they’re usually really out of the way, so you’re not going to be able to just walk there. Many parks don’t connect the entrances either, so they’re purely a destination. My brother lives right outside Glacier National Park, and it’s still a good 20 miles from the “city” (Columbia Falls is ~5k people) to the park entrance (again, there are two, one at each end of the park).
Yes, these places are massive, but they’re also really far from normal traffic, so you’d have go at least a half hour out of the way to get there (often multiple hours driving). Someone needs to pay for maintenance of the infrastructure to get there, and that’s what these fees are for.
Sometimes it’s as low as $2 or so, sometimes it’s like $50 (for more popular parks). It gets adjusted to preserve access for those that really want to visit and prevent abuse. Sometimes it’s just a suggested donation.
Yup, for Yellowstone, that’s 3 entrances, so three sets of booths. It’s largely to cut down on traffic (traffic gets really bad as-is) and maintain the infrastructure.
The only reason you’d go to any of the entrances is to visit the park, there are no through roads or anything, and it’s like an hour or two from the major highways, and several hours from a city larger than 10k people (aside from the tourism towns just outside the park). And the traffic to get into the park is backed up for an hour in the morning for people looking to get lucky with extra passes (there’s a maximum capacity).
You can hike in if you like, the passes are only required for cars IIRC.
It’s genuinely hard to imagine how large America is.
And Finland isn’t one of the tiny Central-European countries.
Driving from Fresno to Yellowstone is pretty much the distance it is to drive from where I live (Southern end of Finland) to the Northern end of Finland.
But yeah at the Northern end in Lapland it starts getting more like that, only a few roads going to the larger national parks. Here in the South you can just go around anything really, there’s backroads and footpaths everywhere. Like no matter how deep in the woods I go, I’d feel awkward taking a shit, since there’s always some dogwalkers to be met.
This makes me want to go hiking up North.
There are areas like that here too. I live next to a few mountains where there see dozens of interconnected trails all largely accessible from an intercity arterial bike path, with free parking near the more popular entrances to the trail network. Much of it is federal land (part of a national forest), but none of it is designated as a national park.
Maybe there’s a two terminology difference here. Here’s the terms we use:
Most of the trails I’m talking about are in the last 3 groups, and they’re all free. Yellowstone, Grand Canyon, and Glacier are all in the first group and all have entrance fees. If you’re “going hiking,” you’ll go on the last four, and the first two are for vacations unless you happen to live right next to one.
Oh. I think for us the first three would be hiking and the last four would just be walking.
But yeah, there’s definitely a difference of terminology, seeing as there’s two completely different languages. But I do take your point.
I don’t know about any trails that have bike paths leading up to them though. I mean, unless you count a road as a bike path. It’s just very much more organic here, you’ve made it into a whole thing that can be used for profit, it seems like. The infrastructure to ours, like duckboards and whatnot are paid for by taxes, but our taxation policies are quite different so we won’t get into that, lol.
There’s no profit here, it’s just a different form of taxation where the users of a service pay more for its upkeep than those who don’t use it. The only time a private org gets involved is if you make a reservation (and even then, many sites use a government agency) or arrange for a guided tour or something.
Everything here is publicly owned, except maybe the handful of hotels that are operated inside Yellowstone (not sure how those work). So whether you’re paying with income tax or park fees isn’t particularly relevant since it’s all federal or state land.
I meant “profit” in the sense of that profit being the taxation. As in, people walking around the park don’t actually cost anything to anyone, so it is profit when you charge people to walk around, but the people wouldn’t be able to come there in the first place were there not the infrastructure which is upheld by said profit.
Well, they do. They leave litter, destroy trails, vandalize formations, etc. Keeping things nice takes a lot of work, especially with how much foot traffic these parks get. Yellowstone gets over 4 million visitors every year, and that’s with the park fees, quotas, etc. Glacier is a bit less popular and still gets around 3 million visitors every year.
National and State parks are funded with both income taxes and park fees. Park fees keep the number of visitors down to a manageable level to preserve the natural beauty.
And walk-ins generally don’t need to pay, though some of the larger parks also have walk-in rates.
OK yeah I’ll admit cleaning up after shitheads does cost, and probably a fair amount because of how famous those places are. (So it’s very much non-locals most of the time, I’d wager.)