That guy’s a fuckin clown.

There is a problem and it is the job of communists to call out parties that support this shit and to offer them places to get properly educated. I only recently discovered prolewiki for example but if someone asked me about “MAGA communism”, I’d possibly suggest that they read the prolewiki page and then we can discuss it.

Again, I don’t think that that’s a fair statement. It is the reactionary “ML” parties who are jumping on this patsoc bullshit in an opportunist fashion. I’ve been active for around 12 years and have never thought revolution was around the corner. That said, education, agitation and organisation never end, do they?

There are two things I always remember from Lenin when discussing or contemplating fatalism: 1) is the quote ‘There are decades where nothing happens; and there are weeks where decades happen.’ and 2) his letter to (I think his mother but I might be wrong) in which he speaks in fatalist terms, as in that feeling we all have, like banging our heads against the walls.

I see this “MAGA communism” phenomenon as part of the never-ending fight against fascism and the material conditions in the USA as well as here in Britain (and all of Europe generally speaking) are ripe for fascism. We are seeing it in Britain and this is another manifestation of it. When the EDL come out, or the BNP back when I started, we would be out too ready to fight them, physically.

Fatalism is bordering on counterrevolutionary and being eager to call out fascism does not mean that you expect the proletariat to suddenly rise up under the banner of any given nation’s “communist party”. We have at least three “Marxist-Leninist” parties here, mostly run by spooks and several Trotskyist parties, as well as some ultraleft groups such as ancoms. I am under no illusion about the state of proletarian consciousness (or the lack thereof) but this doesn’t negate the need to organise. And the question of consciousness is in large part what leads me to see “MAGA communism” as a threat: it has money behind it, the algorithm favours it and it is having an influence on impressionable people. Are we meant to merely let that slide because the left is a joke?

If we can mobilise for Palestine solidarity marches almost every week in most major towns and cities, we can propagate against patsoc movements and call out the parties which support them.

I agree with the point but it is quite fatalist to merely state a fact and to not try and do anything about it. In Britain, I feel that it is the duty of communists to call out groups like the CPGB-ML (and the “Workers’ Party” as someone pointed out in another thread, which is career-opportunist George Galloway’s project) for their grotesque opportunistic support of crypto-fascist movements. Online and offline.

I was speaking specifically about Midwestern Marx who I have seen praised on here in another thread, albeit a couple of years ago, but I was speaking specifically about them - didn’t know they were patsoc until I looked them up on prolewiki. All I have seen of them is their shorts with the wee wrestler guy and these were mostly on Palestine. I don’t even know who “Beau of the Fifth Column” is.

Most of what we are talking about doesn’t seem to have had much interest outside of the USA until recently, due to certain opportunistic moves by some disgraceful “ML parties”.

I use Telegram to speak to one of my best friends who moved to Russia before the “special military operation” as we cannot communicate via most other mainstream (western) platforms and I know refugees who use it to communicate with relatives and so on in other parts of the world which I wont mention, so I would say that some good does/can come from it if it is used for certain purposes.

It is also good for getting on the ground news from Palestine and other places (Yemen, Syria, Iraq, statements from the PFLP, Kurdish groups, Irish Republican news and non-Marxist-Leninist groups involved in active resistance in the ME such as Hezbollah and certain Shia brigades who are fighting/assisting Palestine). But for the most part it is a political cess pit, at least in terms of western representation as well as reactionary/openly fascist elements in western and eastern Europe who make use of it although I have never looked at those channels and wouldn’t. Aside from the ones I have mentioned, the only ones I have looked at are nominally “communist” and most of them support “MAGA communism” and seem to be run by the CPGB-ML.

With no adequate party and with a fragmented, impotent left in the real world where I am but especially in the USA which dominates the digital landscape, it is hard to find spaces online to speak with genuine comrades and have decent, helpful, respectful discussions etc.

edit: Although to be fair I cannot speak to the parties in the USA. In the UK the “ML” parties are a joke/run by spooks and Trots are generally more visible, have higher numbers and this has especially been the case since the Comintern splits over revisionism, also due in large part to their entryist tactics in relation to the Labour Party in the last century. Now the left is fragmented but class consciousness has developed over the years and this is why I asked this question, due to the prospect of naive, new potential comrades falling for the traps set by these reactionaries masquerading as communists, rendering them impotent at best and at worst, at the service of emerging fascism. They might come across the CPGB-ML and join without understanding what’s going on and what they are really about, because they have “communist” and “ML” in their name - I started out as a Trot due to being fledgling when it came to theory - and it is our duty as communists to warn prospective comrades about what groups really stand for, again, hence this thread.

With all due respect, your replies haven’t been useful and I don’t think you’ve really read much of what I’ve said, or have at least only seen/understood it through a narrow USA-formed lens. “MAGA communism” only appeared to me in a “serious” way the day before I made an account here. Before that it was described on Twitter as a terminally online cult with no real world support and didn’t seem to be taken seriously - not everyone is aware of the nuances and intricacies of the online US-left, especially outside of the USA… Seeing “MAGA communism” suddenly being promoted in Britain by the CPGB-ML was a shock and is worrying for reasons I’ve mentioned, hence why I came here to ask.

Maybe this should’ve gone into a different community where it could be discussed properly.

Agreed. They are nothing like the “CPGB-ML” which already had a highly chauvinist streak but I’ve had discussions with a comrade in that party (CPB) and they have problems when it comes to the national question but also their support for the Labour Party, although I would hope that they have gotten rid of that now.

BTW by Worker’s Party did you mean George Galloway’s party? If so, that wouldn’t surprise me at all. He’s always been an opportunist hack. Had some brief moments of glory when calling out the Iraq War and facing down a load of zionists on Question Time once, but he is the archetypal opportunist politician.

The former. I made my first post here asking about potential real world implications of the “MAGA communist” movement after I saw it being given credence by the CPGB-ML. Before coming here I wrote a post condemning it for what it is/warning comrades new to communism/Marxist theory, quoting the prolewiki page on “MAGA communism” and shared it around (this was how I ended up on Lemmygrad - it was a relief to see that this has long been called out by MLs).

Anyway they banned me from various channels they run on Telegram proclaiming to be “communist”. This “party” is led by spiders with webs designed to catch naive comrades and render them impotent as potential agitators and organisers within the labour movement etc. by leading them down the path of reactionary, bigoted thought and now this patsoc stuff, which I hadn’t seen much of in Britain at least within the political circles I am in*. As I said, “MAGA communism” didn’t seem to have much credence and was described as a weird little cult by a comrade on Twitter before I left the platform, I didn’t give it much thought until suddenly seeing the CPGB-ML promoting/encouraging it just a few days ago (I hadn’t been on Telegram long either and mainly use it for news on the ground from Palestine and news relating to other struggles).

It was shocking and angering and it worries me given that these patsoc crypto-fascists are obviously trying to invade spaces in a manner akin to Trotkyist entryism. A major issue is that Marxism-Leninism is not adequately represented in the confused and fragmented “revolutionary left” in Britain and the parties seem to be run by the intelligence apparatus (their ideological positioning obviously serves the bourgeoisie, especially these off-shoots from the “official” CPB).

The latter party I know less about but they seem to be on the same page when it comes to being reactionaries from memory. If they are supporting this bullshit, they are opportunists of the worst kind as well as the former “party”.

(*For what its worth, many older comrades who have been around for many decades have told me that the CPGB-ML have ties to the intelligence agencies in Britain so it all makes sense if that is the case. Same with the other party mentioned, or at least an older manifestation of the same core group. But this patsoc stuff doesn’t seem to be represented in Britain in the way that it has been in the US. Perhaps I just haven’t seen examples of it because of it being “terminally online”. The closest I have seen is largely uncritical support of Putin by groups such as these but no one really pays attention to them as I’m sure you know).

Sorry for the lengthy reply, I am new to Lemmygrad and essentially came to vent frustration over seeing this happen within circles of the British “left” which I highly doubt to be coincidental. It serves a highly useful purpose for one class and it isn’t the proletariat.

Hinkle is one of the “MAGA communism” fascists right?

And there are self-proclaimed “Marxist-Leninists” and even an “ML party” (long speculated to be spooks) in Britain which is supporting this bullshit.

I just closed this thread to look at another one in which someone (from outside of the USA such as myself) was praising Midwestern Marx, particularly when it comes to putting out communist propaganda. They have given credence to “MAGA communism” now. Would you say that anybody who spent time listening to them as being “wide open to cryptofash”?

But yes, you are certainly right about the state of the left in the USA and I am saying this from the outside. It is terrible here - at least severely fragmented with no serious ML party - but “MAGA communism” was not something we had heard of until recently, being taken seriously by the party I have mentioned.

Thanks. I didn’t know much about it at all either until I saw it being taken seriously as some kind of legitimate proletarian movement in spaces nominally run by “Marxist-Leninists”. This is what led me to ask about its real world implications.

I don’t think that’s fair at all. As I said, I only recently started to use Telegram and only encountered “MAGA communism” in the last week or so in a channel called something like: “The Marx, Engels and Lenin Institute” which was riddled with people defending “MAGA communism” all of a sudden because there was some circle-jerk discussion coming up, in which the party I mentioned (nominally “Marxist-Leninist” but believed to be run by spooks) were having their leader speak at. The group I believe is run by the same party and, being new to that platform in general, all I did was join groups which came up after searches for “communism” or “Marxism”. I had only heard about “MAGA communism” on Twitter a while back before I left that platform, asked what it was and it was pretty much brushed off as a small online sect of lunatic crypto-fascists. But seeing it being given credence by a party which claims to be “ML” in the country that I live in and which runs what is supposedly a Marxist study channel, I went to prolewiki, saw the definition and joined Lemmygrad to be around people who saw it for what it was and to ask the question I did, which was whether this “movement” could go offline and have influence in actual politics. As I also said, this was the first instance of any MLs I know of in Britain even discussing the movement, which is of course a movement in the USA.

What you said is unfair - as soon as I noticed it and called it out, which led to one or two people defending me and then three or four making an effort to try and defend “MAGA communism”, using distorted interpretations of Lenin’s work to try and justify their defence. I left the group after sharing the definition from ProleWiki and wrote a comment condemning it and warning comrades about what “MAGA communism” really was in other groups/channels, started a channel and was then invited to join a channel which openly condemns it but which is run by a Hoxhaist which presents its own issues, but at least openly condemns this “movement”. On weekends, I turn my smartphone off unless there is an upcoming event (a branch meeting, a Palestine solidarity event or whatever) but I came here to discuss the real world implications of a movement that I wasn’t aware was being taken seriously and was barely known of in Britain until that party started to give credence to it (they also banned me from the various channels they run after I left the comment condemning the movement).

I can’t think of an equivalent movement here in Britain/the British isles unless we include non-leftist movements such as the neoliberal, right wing “Labour” Party which has long abandoned any pretence of socialism, as I said in my post.

Making such an assumption as you did is not right and is especially unhelpful given that patsocs are clearly putting a lot of effort into invading spaces that are at least nominally Marxist/Marxist-Leninist and especially when a so-called “Marxist-Leninist” party actually jumps on the bandwagon.

This is about educating and warning people, not dismissing them because they have only just encountered such an obviously crypto-fascist movement. Frankly it was shocking and disappointing and I condemned them and all of the people entertaining them as soon as I figured out what was going on.

I suppose the question is: is the threat of patsoc, particularly the “MAGA communism” development a significant threat beyond the terminally online proponents. I’ll add that to the beginning of the post.

I know that I am replying to a 2 year old comment but I think that these patsoc types have made more significant moves into spaces outside of their cultish beginnings (i.e., not being from the USA, “MAGA communism” only became apparent to me recently and I joined Lemmygrad because I was so frustrated with seeing “communist” channels on Telegram, for example, allowing this kind of shit and seeing one supposedly “ML” party from the UK (which as an aside I believe to be run by spooks) embrace the “ideology” and to essentially jump on the bandwagon in a truly grotesque, opportunistic move in a desire to be relevant and perhaps gain some new members. I can’t see any other justification for their actions. They make the excuse that the “MAGA” movement contains proletarian elements, which is true, but this is territory similar to suggesting that the “national socialists” contained proletarian elements, or the Union of Fascists of Britain and we saw how that played out. I reminded them that Stalin saw the “national socialists” for what they were before WW2 started, as did most communists I am sure, and also that one of the most significant moments in the history of the proletariat in 20th century England was the Battle of Cable Street, in which antifascists and ordinary members of the public came together to beat the shit out of Oswald Mosley’s thugs. Antifascism has been a longstanding current in Britain generally, and to see what is essentially a fascist movement being supported by “Marxist-Leninists” is a disgrace and should not be allowed.

But my main point is that they seemed to have spread. I was fooled into entering spaces before I realised that these movements were so significant. I have seen people discuss them as terminally online but the attempted “synthesis” (again, grotesque: apologies to Marx, Lenin and of course Hegel) of the Cult of Maga with “communism” is a potential danger which cannot be slept on. MAGA fascists were highly visible and helped to bring fascists out of the woodworks. It could well be that the “MAGA communists” do the same.

It seems to me that the whole thing is a psyop designed to discredit communist theory and “communists”, given the significant emergence of proletarians in the USA discovering Marxist/Marxist-Leninist theory over the last ten years or so. But I do believe that it has the potential to become a more significant threat to being a mere online cult of wackos that are likely being manipulated by some kind of COINTELPRO style psyop into accepting distorted ideas about communism.

It should be noted that I haven’t seen these people defend Israel but they do focus much energy on the proxy war in Ukraine and this was in part why I started to pay attention to some of the articles they put out, coming from places like The Grayzone, but they hardly seem to talk about Palestine at all, which is of course an international emergency requiring the attention of communists around the world as I write this. Also, my only exposure to this is via channels which proclaim to be “communist” but are indeed “patsocs” and who, in these channels, “defend” and promote “MAGA communism”, as I said, to the point that a self-proclaimed “Marxist-Leninist” party in my country jumping on this bandwagon (they are a very small party and are highly reactionary, especially on issues such as trans issues, but they claim to uphold an anti-revisionist line, yet are apparently funded by the state apparatus and I hear this from an old comrade who is approaching 90 and has heard and seen it all before. This party split from the original ML party of the Comintern due to revisionism in the main body of the party, which does have serious problems in itself. Anyway I am rambling).

THIS kind of republican.

26+6=1 tiocfaidh ár lá

(I am more an INLA/IRSP man myself, the ML wing of the Irish Republican struggle. There is no denying the powerful impact of this picture however).

This is the second old thread I’ve bumped but I searched r/communism to see what people’s thoughts and experiences were here on Lemmygrad. Not long ago I had some free time and added some new books to my collection, mainly some of Stalin’s writings that I hadn’t read and I went along with my partner who was working to stay in the middle of nowhere - perfect for study. But I wanted a platform for asking questions/aiding my study and checked out reddit for the first time. Was banned in r/communism fairly quickly for a couple of days for helping a newbie with some suggestions for reading on a certain topic which was basically some ML theory supplemented with a couple of texts that were from bourgeois media sources and a book in which Chomsky had written a fairly decent account of the basic history of the topic, but these sources were relevant and helpful in understanding the topic in question (I can’t remember what the topic was).

Later I was banned for quite a well-thought out ML analyses/comment in a thread that was “upvoted” many times but the mods didn’t like it and banned me without giving a reason. I saw other subreddits and found the “you’re not a real communist until you’ve been banned from r/communism” thing being said and found decent comrades but initially I felt really sh*tty about it. It started to make sense to me in that they embody the worst stereotypes about “communists”: disagreeable, hostile and all the rest of it which obviously isn’t true at all given how much of our work consists of education - education never ends. I saw other people suggest that it was a fed-run operation to turn people - especially newbies - away from understanding communism/communist theory and to put them off entirely. If it could even make me momentarily second guess myself then I can’t imagine what kind of effect this would have on someone just starting out.

But yes, fed-run and they have an unreasonably dogmatic rule which is something like: “mandatory: read Settlers” as in you must read what is a disputed work or you are not welcome.

For such a hostile environment supposedly run by and for communists, I can only understand it as being designed to put people off of engaging with communist theory/praxis etc. and this makes me think that its a psyop/fed run or whatever. The J. Sakai thing being “mandatory” was a major sign that something was wrong IMO, regardless of what comrades think of that text.

Sorry to bump this thread - I am new here. Have been listening to 1Dime have a very long discussion with The Marxist Project (the latter of which has some useful introductory videos on aspects of Marxism and Leninism). Some of the takes in this video are quite negative and seem to at times sound fatalist and “Trotskyist” also. The intention of the discussion is to chart the course of the collapse of the USSR without adhering to one tendency, which I think is a highly difficult, essentially “academic” task in itself.

This is the video - History of the USSR: What Went Wrong? ([1Dime radio] Ft.@themarxistproject) - part 1 anyway - the whole discussion is 5 hours long and I’m unsure if its worth it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_3nEZuVMjug