“Oh wow, these fascist concentration camps we’re being sent to are really bad, but have you considered that the democrat’s foreign policy was only moderately less heinous, instead of significantly? Both sides!”
The Republicans are absolutely worse, yes, but voter apathy among leftists is 100% the fault of Dems. They do not try to garner support of leftists in any way, and voting for dems does not move America to the left, it just solidifies it in its current Neoliberal position.
The answer to leftist voter apathy is therefore not to shame them, but help them see that because voting will not move America to the left, it’s purely loss prevention. People absolutely stand to lose under Trump, or any other Republican, so leftists should vote for the Neoliberals.
However, that alone is not enough. To move America to the left, the most effective path is via grassroots organization like Unionization and electing Socialists to local offices. Pressure the system from below and the top will follow.
That’s how you appeal to leftists more, since the Dems seem keen on pissing on Leftists.
The Republicans are absolutely worse, yes, but voter apathy among leftists is 100% the fault of Dems. They do not try to garner support of leftists in any way, and voting for dems does not move America to the left, it just solidifies it in its current Neoliberal position.
Considering how far to the right America is, I’m gonna have to disagree about voting for Dems not moving America left. All things are relative, and relative to what we’re facing down from the GOP, the milquetoast neolib Dems look like Vladimir fucking Lenin.
The answer to leftist voter apathy is therefore not to shame them, but help them see that because voting will not move America to the left, it’s purely loss prevention. People absolutely stand to lose under Trump, or any other Republican, so leftists should vote for the Neoliberals.
The point of the shame is that they’re refusing to engage in loss prevention. That loudmouths on here would prefer to uphold some ideal of “I’m not going to vote for anyone except those who agree with me completely, no matter who suffers because of it!” and need to be fucking shamed. It’s lack of shame that enables them to indulge in purist and accelerationist fantasies at the expense of the actual wellbeing of minority and oppressed groups.
However, that alone is not enough. To move America to the left, the most effective path is via grassroots organization like Unionization and electing Socialists to local offices. Pressure the system from below and the top will follow.
I hear the sentiment about dems being significantly closer to the center than the fascist reps, but that’s not a linear move by voring dem. You aren’t voting to move America closer to Socialism, but closer to Neoliberalism. If the dems won every single election, they still would stay neoliberal unless the Reps fell and a more leftist party took its place. You can’t push America to the left by voting harder, just push it closer to Neoliberalism.
My point about shame is that usually, radlibs try to yell at leftists by showcasing how progressive Biden is compared to previous dems, when being progressive for a Neoliberal is still a fucking Neoliberal. I’ve seen it plenty of times, a leftist points out that voting for dems won’t move America to the left (correct) and then radlibs try to say that Biden somehow is actually good and leftist (incorrect, he’s just a progressive Neoliberal), then the leftist feels more alienated and doesn’t vote at all because nothing will change (incorrect conclusion).
By framing electoralism not as a means to gain what leftists want, but to avoid losing what they have, and pointing out that actual change comes from bottom-up, you prevent voter apathy and inspire activism.
I hear the sentiment about dems being significantly closer to the center than the fascist reps, but that’s not a linear move by voring dem. You aren’t voting to move America closer to Socialism, but closer to Neoliberalism. If the dems won every single election, they still would stay neoliberal unless the Reps fell and a more leftist party took its place. You can’t push America to the left by voting harder, just push it closer to Neoliberalism.
I think we just have a fundamentally different perspective on this one. My point of view is that neoliberalism is closer to the left than corporatocracy and fascism - not by virtue of being particularly left, but by virtue of being closer to the center, and thus that the difference between “Democracy, but free market fetishists with a welfare state” and “Democracy, but socialist” is smaller than “Democracy, but socialist” and “Neocalvinist ultranationalist authoritarians”
Voting for neoliberals in my view thus does move the country left relative to where it is currently - but only to a point, and not indefinitely (and only because we’re already pretty far right overall).
I think you misunderstand my point. America is already Neoliberal, that’s why the Democrats ran on a platform of “nothing will fundamentally change.” A vote for dems does push america comparatively left on a left/right scale, yes, but as it gets closer to neoliberalism it will move less and less left with each election cycle. The pressure to move left comes from the bottom up.
Most likely, yes! That’s a huge problem I think for many on this platform, most of the leftist infighting comes from saying the same thing in different ways. There’s legitimate infighting too, of course, but most of it is silly.
You mean the fascists that democrats support in primaries because they’re “unelectable”? Democrats can eat shit, same with any of their voters who are deluded enough to think that people unwilling to vote for senile genocidal nazis and their collaborators are the real fascists
Keep carrying water for fascists, eventually they’ll pat you on the head and call you a good little collaborator before you get the same treatment the rest of us will.
Democrats are gonna keep going right until eventually Democrats are gonna be right off desantis and you’re gonna support them the whole way. How sad, I wish you wouldn’t completely fuck over my life and the lives of everyone else here just because you want to feel superior to everyone else
I rather wish you weren’t hell-bent on fucking over the lives of everyone in the country because you want to feel superior for not voting for Biden, and, by your own admission, having no plan to improve things? Just cratering them now instead of later?
It’s always well off white people that day shit like this xD the people with the least to lose from a trump dictatorship are always the first to act superior to others, including queer people and poc who don’t want to continue the endless rightward slide
Hey, guess what! I’m a mixed-race guy living at under half the fucking poverty line! But sure, call everyone who disagrees with “We must go faster into the camps!” rich and white, I’m sure you’ll hit one eventually.
If you want to fix that, run for local office as a Democrat. But until we get rid of first past the post voting, you have to vote.
In our system, a failure to vote is identically equivalent to voting for whoever you hate most. If you truly see both sides as equally bad, then it doesn’t matter who you vote for. If you think Democrats are worse, then you must vote Republican.
This shit is why I’m not voting for biden. I don’t wanna vote for a denocidal cunt whose party supports Actual Fucking Nazis, and smug cunts like you just make me even more sure it’s the right choice
“One option is bad, so I’m going to choose the worse option!”
Those of us who will be rounded up for extermination thank you for your stunning dedication to democracy at home and abroad. I’m sure the Palestinians will be kissing your boots too, for putting an even more pro-genocide president in office. But hey, who cares if more Palestinians die because you wanted Trump in office? At least you can say “I didn’t vote for JOE BIDEN” when the fascists are marching us to the ditches to be shot.
Our options help you and us, your option is fuck you guys do what we say.
What option do you have that’s viable, again?
Like, it’s great that you want an anti-Israel candidate, but how the fuck do you expect to install a government that’s anti-Israel when the vast majority of voters, GOP, Dem, and Independent, are pro-Israel?
Are we gonna storm the capital next?
You guys are fearmongers
Yeah, totally, just close your eyes and plug your ears as to what the literal fascist who’s already attempted an autocoup once is loudly and proudly proclaiming he’ll do, with the full, bootlicking support of his party.
I just don’t wanna be put in a fucking camp and FOUR MORE YEARS is just gonna delay it by four more years while shit gradually gets worse and he does nothing about it
The difference is four more years to try to change things, or just put on the armband and go to the gas chambers meekly and quietly now.
Me? I would prefer the four extra years to try to change American society to selling out everyone I care about to a fascist regime because I yearn for death. If I wanted to die that bad, there are ways which inflict less collateral damage to go about it. I should know. I’ve tried.
Nothing. Will. Change. Under. Democrats. This is a universal constant until their base puts up any kind of resistance to them going further right. They collaborate with and support republicans all the fucking time. Explain to me how that will change with unconditional support. Or don’t and just keep calling people who agree with you on 90% of issues fascists, surely that will get genocide joe the votes he needs to wipe Gaza off the map
Jesus, sorry you can’t see the change that has actually happened these past 20 years, but I guess minorities and the disabled don’t fucking matter to you.
Also holy shit you think trump will kill more Palestinians than biden? Holy shit you’re delusional xDDDD he’s literally as fucking awful as he could be about it without literally nuking Gaza, trump would be shit too (like most presidents) but he literally cannot be worse than biden in that regard
Are you kidding? There is so much fucking more we could be doing. That’s either a lack of understanding of what Biden is and is not doing, a lack of understanding of what the president can do, or a simple lack of imagination. Do you really think Trump wouldn’t have jets running sorties on Palestinian targets right now? Do you think Trump would be using any of the US’s influence to peddle ‘humanitarian pauses’, since Bibi has explicitly and loudly rejected the idea of a ceasefire? Do you think Trump wouldn’t be pulling out all the stops to see Palestinians die and brag about what a great and murderous ‘war president’ he is?
“if you’re not with us you’re with the terrorists”
Btw I’d get rounded up by trump too. Probably before you would if pence is vp again. They’re the bad cop to the dems’ good cop, and until you and a bunch of other loyal democrats (like I used to be) realize that, we will never stop sliding to the right. Democrats know they can run literally any candidate and potentially win, and dogmatically voting for them is never going to change that. Only making your vote conditional can, unless I’m missing something that you’d care to explain between calling me a fascist
“if you’re not with us you’re with the terrorists”
Mathe-fucking-matically, there are two serious options in the upcoming election. “If you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice.”
Btw I’d get rounded up by trump too. Probably before you would if pence is vp again. They’re the bad cop to the dems’ good cop, and until you and a bunch of other loyal democrats (like I used to be) realize that, we will never stop sliding to the right. Democrats know they can run literally any candidate and potentially win, and dogmatically voting for them is never going to change that. Only making your vote conditional can, unless I’m missing something that you’d care to explain between calling me a fascist
Care to tell me how making your vote conditional is gonna change the Democratic Party when future elections aren’t gonna matter? Do you think that a second Trump term is gonna give the Dems a chance to ‘earn back’ our votes in 2026 and 2028? Or do you think, more likely, the government will be hollowed out and our votes will mean jack shit?
The way we stop the Dems from sliding to the right is actually turning out for the fucking primaries, unlike most younger voters. Fuck, when I worked the polls, I saw jack fucking shit for people my age during the primaries. We could have had fucking Bernie. But there’s not a sense of civic duty, or even a good sense of how the system works amongst people my age. Honestly, around people of any age, but the old fucks still check their snail mail and get a flyer that tells them how to vote and hobble in and ask us to help them fill out their ballot exactly as they’re told to.
That’s something many factions are happy to encourage - but it’s not baked into the system. It’s something that can be fought - and not by giving the GOP the presidency in the hope that it’ll magically pull people left instead of right, unlike, y’know, the rightward swings that have happened in every previous GOP presidency.
The fact that it’s Trump, the moronic puppeteered fuck who tried an autocoup for the first time in US history, just turns it from “This is a really dumb idea” to “This is a fucking suicidal idea”.
Yep, if only those pesky young voters and 3rd party voters would just vote for absolute pieces of shit after being treated like garbage for not supporting someone 10% less abhorrent than Reagan. Your piece of shit candidates don’t deserve any fucking votes until they actually start representing people other than the white boomers who will vote for them no matter what
Shit’s literally fucking hopeless. Legit what’s the fucking point of VBNMW? They’re never going to go left as long as people keep voting for them. I literally don’t see how the US can not collapse in the next decade or so besides losing WWIII and getting occupied for a few decades. I’m not a fucking fascist! HOPE THE FUCK DOES NOT SUPPORTING The BIGGEST SUPPORTERS OF FASCISTS MAKE ME FASCIST???
“Oh wow, these fascist concentration camps we’re being sent to are really bad, but have you considered that the democrat’s foreign policy was only moderately less heinous, instead of significantly? Both sides!”
The Republicans are absolutely worse, yes, but voter apathy among leftists is 100% the fault of Dems. They do not try to garner support of leftists in any way, and voting for dems does not move America to the left, it just solidifies it in its current Neoliberal position.
The answer to leftist voter apathy is therefore not to shame them, but help them see that because voting will not move America to the left, it’s purely loss prevention. People absolutely stand to lose under Trump, or any other Republican, so leftists should vote for the Neoliberals.
However, that alone is not enough. To move America to the left, the most effective path is via grassroots organization like Unionization and electing Socialists to local offices. Pressure the system from below and the top will follow.
That’s how you appeal to leftists more, since the Dems seem keen on pissing on Leftists.
Considering how far to the right America is, I’m gonna have to disagree about voting for Dems not moving America left. All things are relative, and relative to what we’re facing down from the GOP, the milquetoast neolib Dems look like Vladimir fucking Lenin.
The point of the shame is that they’re refusing to engage in loss prevention. That loudmouths on here would prefer to uphold some ideal of “I’m not going to vote for anyone except those who agree with me completely, no matter who suffers because of it!” and need to be fucking shamed. It’s lack of shame that enables them to indulge in purist and accelerationist fantasies at the expense of the actual wellbeing of minority and oppressed groups.
I agree.
I hear the sentiment about dems being significantly closer to the center than the fascist reps, but that’s not a linear move by voring dem. You aren’t voting to move America closer to Socialism, but closer to Neoliberalism. If the dems won every single election, they still would stay neoliberal unless the Reps fell and a more leftist party took its place. You can’t push America to the left by voting harder, just push it closer to Neoliberalism.
My point about shame is that usually, radlibs try to yell at leftists by showcasing how progressive Biden is compared to previous dems, when being progressive for a Neoliberal is still a fucking Neoliberal. I’ve seen it plenty of times, a leftist points out that voting for dems won’t move America to the left (correct) and then radlibs try to say that Biden somehow is actually good and leftist (incorrect, he’s just a progressive Neoliberal), then the leftist feels more alienated and doesn’t vote at all because nothing will change (incorrect conclusion).
By framing electoralism not as a means to gain what leftists want, but to avoid losing what they have, and pointing out that actual change comes from bottom-up, you prevent voter apathy and inspire activism.
I think we just have a fundamentally different perspective on this one. My point of view is that neoliberalism is closer to the left than corporatocracy and fascism - not by virtue of being particularly left, but by virtue of being closer to the center, and thus that the difference between “Democracy, but free market fetishists with a welfare state” and “Democracy, but socialist” is smaller than “Democracy, but socialist” and “Neocalvinist ultranationalist authoritarians”
Voting for neoliberals in my view thus does move the country left relative to where it is currently - but only to a point, and not indefinitely (and only because we’re already pretty far right overall).
I think you misunderstand my point. America is already Neoliberal, that’s why the Democrats ran on a platform of “nothing will fundamentally change.” A vote for dems does push america comparatively left on a left/right scale, yes, but as it gets closer to neoliberalism it will move less and less left with each election cycle. The pressure to move left comes from the bottom up.
Then I think we’re in agreement, just expressing it differently.
Most likely, yes! That’s a huge problem I think for many on this platform, most of the leftist infighting comes from saying the same thing in different ways. There’s legitimate infighting too, of course, but most of it is silly.
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“Oh wow we’re getting genocided but at least CNN can attend the white house’s press meetings”
What, do you think that if Biden loses, the Israelis are going to… what? Genocide the Palestinians less?
You mean the fascists that democrats support in primaries because they’re “unelectable”? Democrats can eat shit, same with any of their voters who are deluded enough to think that people unwilling to vote for senile genocidal nazis and their collaborators are the real fascists
Keep carrying water for fascists, eventually they’ll pat you on the head and call you a good little collaborator before you get the same treatment the rest of us will.
Democrats are gonna keep going right until eventually Democrats are gonna be right off desantis and you’re gonna support them the whole way. How sad, I wish you wouldn’t completely fuck over my life and the lives of everyone else here just because you want to feel superior to everyone else
Legit perfect description of what you’re doing by simping for trump
I rather wish you weren’t hell-bent on fucking over the lives of everyone in the country because you want to feel superior for not voting for Biden, and, by your own admission, having no plan to improve things? Just cratering them now instead of later?
It’s always well off white people that day shit like this xD the people with the least to lose from a trump dictatorship are always the first to act superior to others, including queer people and poc who don’t want to continue the endless rightward slide
Hey, guess what! I’m a mixed-race guy living at under half the fucking poverty line! But sure, call everyone who disagrees with “We must go faster into the camps!” rich and white, I’m sure you’ll hit one eventually.
If you want to fix that, run for local office as a Democrat. But until we get rid of first past the post voting, you have to vote.
In our system, a failure to vote is identically equivalent to voting for whoever you hate most. If you truly see both sides as equally bad, then it doesn’t matter who you vote for. If you think Democrats are worse, then you must vote Republican.
This shit is why I’m not voting for biden. I don’t wanna vote for a denocidal cunt whose party supports Actual Fucking Nazis, and smug cunts like you just make me even more sure it’s the right choice
“One option is bad, so I’m going to choose the worse option!”
Those of us who will be rounded up for extermination thank you for your stunning dedication to democracy at home and abroad. I’m sure the Palestinians will be kissing your boots too, for putting an even more pro-genocide president in office. But hey, who cares if more Palestinians die because you wanted Trump in office? At least you can say “I didn’t vote for JOE BIDEN” when the fascists are marching us to the ditches to be shot.
Maybe the people who are going to be exterminated should help us get a better person.
We are asking that you help us to get a better person, you guys want us to vote for a piece of shit.
Our options help you and us, your option is fuck you guys do what we say.
You guys are fearmongers
What option do you have that’s viable, again?
Like, it’s great that you want an anti-Israel candidate, but how the fuck do you expect to install a government that’s anti-Israel when the vast majority of voters, GOP, Dem, and Independent, are pro-Israel?
Are we gonna storm the capital next?
Yeah, totally, just close your eyes and plug your ears as to what the literal fascist who’s already attempted an autocoup once is loudly and proudly proclaiming he’ll do, with the full, bootlicking support of his party.
I just don’t wanna be put in a fucking camp and FOUR MORE YEARS is just gonna delay it by four more years while shit gradually gets worse and he does nothing about it
The difference is four more years to try to change things, or just put on the armband and go to the gas chambers meekly and quietly now.
Me? I would prefer the four extra years to try to change American society to selling out everyone I care about to a fascist regime because I yearn for death. If I wanted to die that bad, there are ways which inflict less collateral damage to go about it. I should know. I’ve tried.
Nothing. Will. Change. Under. Democrats. This is a universal constant until their base puts up any kind of resistance to them going further right. They collaborate with and support republicans all the fucking time. Explain to me how that will change with unconditional support. Or don’t and just keep calling people who agree with you on 90% of issues fascists, surely that will get genocide joe the votes he needs to wipe Gaza off the map
Jesus, sorry you can’t see the change that has actually happened these past 20 years, but I guess minorities and the disabled don’t fucking matter to you.
Also holy shit you think trump will kill more Palestinians than biden? Holy shit you’re delusional xDDDD he’s literally as fucking awful as he could be about it without literally nuking Gaza, trump would be shit too (like most presidents) but he literally cannot be worse than biden in that regard
It would have been quicker and easier to type “vote trump everyone”
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Are you kidding? There is so much fucking more we could be doing. That’s either a lack of understanding of what Biden is and is not doing, a lack of understanding of what the president can do, or a simple lack of imagination. Do you really think Trump wouldn’t have jets running sorties on Palestinian targets right now? Do you think Trump would be using any of the US’s influence to peddle ‘humanitarian pauses’, since Bibi has explicitly and loudly rejected the idea of a ceasefire? Do you think Trump wouldn’t be pulling out all the stops to see Palestinians die and brag about what a great and murderous ‘war president’ he is?
All this commenter is thinking is that they can’t wait for trump’s reelection
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Here you deleted this, show us who you really are.
“if you’re not with us you’re with the terrorists”
Btw I’d get rounded up by trump too. Probably before you would if pence is vp again. They’re the bad cop to the dems’ good cop, and until you and a bunch of other loyal democrats (like I used to be) realize that, we will never stop sliding to the right. Democrats know they can run literally any candidate and potentially win, and dogmatically voting for them is never going to change that. Only making your vote conditional can, unless I’m missing something that you’d care to explain between calling me a fascist
Mathe-fucking-matically, there are two serious options in the upcoming election. “If you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice.”
Care to tell me how making your vote conditional is gonna change the Democratic Party when future elections aren’t gonna matter? Do you think that a second Trump term is gonna give the Dems a chance to ‘earn back’ our votes in 2026 and 2028? Or do you think, more likely, the government will be hollowed out and our votes will mean jack shit?
The way we stop the Dems from sliding to the right is actually turning out for the fucking primaries, unlike most younger voters. Fuck, when I worked the polls, I saw jack fucking shit for people my age during the primaries. We could have had fucking Bernie. But there’s not a sense of civic duty, or even a good sense of how the system works amongst people my age. Honestly, around people of any age, but the old fucks still check their snail mail and get a flyer that tells them how to vote and hobble in and ask us to help them fill out their ballot exactly as they’re told to.
That’s something many factions are happy to encourage - but it’s not baked into the system. It’s something that can be fought - and not by giving the GOP the presidency in the hope that it’ll magically pull people left instead of right, unlike, y’know, the rightward swings that have happened in every previous GOP presidency.
The fact that it’s Trump, the moronic puppeteered fuck who tried an autocoup for the first time in US history, just turns it from “This is a really dumb idea” to “This is a fucking suicidal idea”.
Yep, if only those pesky young voters and 3rd party voters would just vote for absolute pieces of shit after being treated like garbage for not supporting someone 10% less abhorrent than Reagan. Your piece of shit candidates don’t deserve any fucking votes until they actually start representing people other than the white boomers who will vote for them no matter what
“Well, not living under fascism is nice, but I don’t think the Democrats really EARNED my vote, you know?”
And you accuse others of being privileged pieces of shit? Lmao
Shit’s literally fucking hopeless. Legit what’s the fucking point of VBNMW? They’re never going to go left as long as people keep voting for them. I literally don’t see how the US can not collapse in the next decade or so besides losing WWIII and getting occupied for a few decades. I’m not a fucking fascist! HOPE THE FUCK DOES NOT SUPPORTING The BIGGEST SUPPORTERS OF FASCISTS MAKE ME FASCIST???
Do you really not see how peddling “It’s hopeless! Let the fascist win!” is working for the victory of that selfsame fascist?
Are you voting for this?
‘No, no, no, other than day one. We’re closing the border, and we’re drilling, drilling, drilling. After that, I’m not a dictator.’
– Donald Trump, wannabe dictator
Yep, you got it! I don’t vote for genocidal cunts so clearly I’m voting for trump. Fuck off libtard
Wow, anyone that asks if you’re voting for Trump is automatically a libtard in your measure?
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