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I love how a country is allowed to just get away with killing children and UN workers and doctors and journalists but we condemn countries that do the same thing like Russia. It makes no sense that Israel should get a free pass, all it does is expose a huge double standard
False equivalence.
Russia bombed Kiev for the hell of it, not even pretending there was a military objective. Russia also is conscripting Ukrainians to fight against their fellow countrymen as cannon-fodder on the front line. It is kidnapping children into Russia.
We could go an have a piss-fight between the warcrimes of Russia and the warcrimes of Israel.
The US can be the bad guy in one conflict while be on the good side on another. Imperialism is bad, whether it’s Russia or the US doing it.
Also, Hamas are war criminals as well. No good guys fighting there ATM.
The whole point of the article is Biden criticizing Israel for going too far in their mission to eradicate Hamas. He even criticized US for invading Afghanistan.
Bit of a tangent, but I find it insane that the US spent over 2000 billion to fight the war in Afghanistan, but congress is unwilling to authorise giving the Ukrainians 60 billion. A relatively small amount, that means Ukrainians can keep fighting Russia, decreasing the likelihood of American troops ever having to get involved in a war in Europe.
Ah, but from where I sit (a long way from the US), it looks more like a pissing contest between the Republicans to see who can be the most terrible human being in government, than it does look like any sort of actual policy or principal.
It’s not about helping Ukraine, or avoiding the mistakes of Afghanistan - it’s about trying to make Biden (and/or ‘The Dems’ in general) look bad, even if that involves civilian deaths.
Are they evil, Russian agents or just absolute clowns? It doesn’t really matter, does it. The end result is the same.
From someone in the US, smack dab in the middle of very dense Republican land (Oklahoma,) I want you to know that you’ve nailed it! You’re spot on. I wish you were exaggerating, lol.
I once did the sums to calculate that USA could have afforded a run a gun buyback scheme (like Australia) rather than invade Iraq, you know… to cut down on Americans killing Americans.
I did the sums, and the US would have been able to fund a large moonbase for the next century, mine asteroids AND seriously begin colonising Mars.
But instead of becoming an interplanetary power, the US chose to blow up brown farmers.
Kubrick’s 2001, A Space Odyssey vs Dr Strangelove
And accomplished nothing for the people there, within 2 months it was as bad as it ever was before the US came.
But that 2000 billion went directly into the military industrial complex. Ka-ching.
Is the same true for that 60 billion?
He criticizes their war crimes with one hand but with the other hand he gives them billions of dollars to help them commit more.
Netanyahu said in a statement on Tuesday that Israel had received “full backing” from the U.S. for its ground incursion into Gaza and that Washington had blocked “international pressure to stop the war.”
No good guys fighting there ATM.
IDF are the good guys, just like the Ukrainian army is. That doesn’t mean that every single individual in either army are angels or that every operation is virtuous, just that their overall intentions are just.
An important question: What would the world look like if these guys won versus if they lost?
IDF are the good guys
Narrator: …they weren’t.
Which is more important, ends or means?
Ends are more important.
I can prove to you it is not.
If my end is to have a million dollars, am I justified in killing whoever I want to get it?
If someone rapes your sister, are you justified in killing their whole family to get to them?
If someone kills your daughter, are you justified in burning down a city in revenge?
Oh, I didn’t realize you asked “do ends always justify the means?”. My mistake.
I’m positively surprised ur not downvoted to hell for saying that I must say
There are no downvotes on Beehaw.
ohhhh that makes total sense now thanks!
It’s true, there are no downvotes on Beehaw. It doesn’t accept them or federate them.
However, people from other instances see a downvote button and it registers downvotes - but only from people on their own instance.
@fosforus and @idiocracy are probably looking at those figures and mistaking it for over-all numbers.
Perhaps majority of the people who hate my comments about Israel vs Hamas have already blocked me
that was funny and I thank u for that :D
IMO the only “good guys” fighting there are the civilians “fighting” to survive. Not Hamas and not the IDF. Neither care about the innocent.
If Ukraine had initially launched an attack on Russia and killed 1,200 mainlycivilians, taken 200+ hostages and thrown in a bit of organised gang rape, I doubt Ukraine would be receiving its current level of support, and there may even have been some support for retaliatory action by Russia.
That’s not to say that Israel’s current appalling treatment of Palestinian civilians is justified
Except it wasn’t Palestine that attacked, it was a group disassociated with the Palestinian Authority, that Israel itself funds so it can justify the “war” to favor the arms dealers and distract the constituents of the terrible administration they’re receiving.
The two conflicts are not even remotely comparable.
The two conflicts are not even remotely comparable.
That was largely my point.
You have a weird way of getting to it, seeing as you compared the two right out of the door.
Given that I was replying to a message drawing equivalence, you’ll see that I was saying that they weren’t really equivalent, in that Ukraine hadn’t mounted an attack on Russian civilians. Hope that helps.
It’s crazy. On reddit, it’s 90%
Let’s ignore how many people israel has killed, they need to kill more, and let’s also go ahead an label everyone who says “too much” a hamas supporter
Then you go here and it’s again 90%
Let’s not even call hamas terrorist, more like freedom-fighters with some friendly rape and friendly fire thrown in.
You are describing r/Worldnews not other Reddit subs.
And Lemmy has been 50-50, with very little actual personal attacking.
Worldnews mods are clearly fascist. They banned me for being skeptical of IDF sources
If it makes you feel any better, I got banned for my first and only comment there (not even a post) which was a link and an explanation of the high credentials of the author. Like this…
https://seymourhersh.substack.com/p/how-america-took-out-the-nord-stream
Hersh first gained recognition in 1969 for exposing the My Lai Massacre and its cover-up during the Vietnam War, for which he received the 1970 Pulitzer Prize for International Reporting.
Yeah they are clearly forcing a narrative there.
I wouldn’t be surprised if someone from IDF social media team is involved in some way, either as a mod or paying the mods handsomely
I do not visit worldnews. This description fits to both /r/europe and /r/de.
And regarding lemmy, maybe on other instances, but I’m only on beehaw.
Haven’t visited those subs.
I might be describing beehaw rather than other Lemmy instances. That was why I joined beehaw, because it promised civility.
As I said, I only know of beehaw as well. No personal attacks, but also nowhere near 50-50 sentinment.
50-50 here
what do u mean 50-50? give me one thread here that isn’t anti Israel and with massive upvote/downvote ratio
Wut? I’ve not seen a single pro Israel thread here.
Not moving the goalposts but I meant Lemmy in general, not beehaw, cause no downvotes
But I admit you supplied a link to my request. I stand.partially informed
Ah, so only beehaw prohibits downvotes, not other Lemmy instances. TIL.
I guess even what I showed you may have gone negative if downvotes were allowed. The person I was arguing with wasn’t being nasty about it, just incredibly obstinate.
I worry about a return to Nazi style anti-semitism (though I hate Likud) which the polarized discussions are leading us towards. It is arrogant to think it could never happen again.
I don’t agree with this characterization at all.
Here in the fediverse there are many people with opinions similar to mine, i.e we are on the side of civillians, not any of the belligerents in this hellscape of war crimes.
all it does is expose a huge double standard
No, a simple unistandard. I’ll illustrate with a meme.
Isreal’s main exports are cutting-edge technology found nowhere else in the world. Russia’s main export is oil. Western and European Union countries were fine getting their oil elsewhere, but they absolutely do not want to give up advanced tech. Especially since there will always be other countries that don’t care and will continue trading anyway.
Israel ain’t Taiwan. What tech do you think is indispensable there?
Mostly software based tech. Israel is leading in the field of “legal” spyware for example.
Extralegal!
You have a point there.
Maybe they mean this sort of thing.
It’s security software - firewalls, VPNs, that sort of thing. It’s not that it’s not available anywhere else, but the Israeli stuff was always considered among the best before this conflict kicked off.
It’s also weapons. Many of which are sold as “battle tested” because they were tested in Palestine.
Bioscience and Military tech are also fields Isreali companies excel at.
I often hear of Bioscience “breakthroughs” from Israel which amount to nothing but hype.
What military tech apart from Iron Dome? (which protects against crappy home made rockets)
Israel sells billions worth of weapons a year, sometimes to repressive regimes like the Myanmar junta.
It also innovates quite heavily in that space.
I have been noticing a number of doctors mentioning a new kind of burn on children in Gaza. Israel routinely deploys new weapons there, and this may well be a new example of testing experimental weapons in Gaza
search for Israeli Nobel prize winners.
and multiple countries want to have their hand on iron dome including Ukraine so where ur going with this?
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Russia has the right to self defense.
Do you condemn NATO?
/s
No. Israel must change, Netanyahu must resign.
Action: skirt congress rules to give Israel shells to continue bombing indiscriminately
Words: You need to change, you’re losing support.
Which is it? And can you guess which speaks louder.
propoganda. israel doesn’t shell indiscriminately, they targets terrorists.
otherwise gaza would b erased from map in a single day.
do u really compare the most dense city in the world to… that?
or u try to make a point that so many buildings were destroyed yet so many arabs are alive thus Israel is doing a great job not harming the population?
Is this a joke account?
Gaza is not even remotely the densest city in the world. There are several cities in Israel alone that are denser.
Also, yeah, the death toll among civilians is a tiny fraction of that in these cities during WW2 despite similar levels of destruction, which does support the claim that Israel is actually warning people.
“Terrorists” as in “every male person over 18 + 40% women and children as collateral damage”.
propoganda
You’re so deep in. Wow. You can literally turn on the TV and see the bodies and burned out apartments stacking up on corporate media.
The tide is turning, Zionist. The world is starting to hate Israel.
The claim he called propaganda was that every male over 18 +40% of women are seen as, and killed as, terrorists by the Israeli army, not that there wouldn’t be dead civilians. Nobody, literally nobody, claims the latter. Also YOU are funnily the one doing that by being anti-Israel? That, other than Hamas, is an actual country with civilians. Just stop the polarisation and dramatisation. One can be against wannabe autocrat Netanyahu, the war crimes the Israeli army is committing, and yet hope they kill every single Hamas member. Gaza has to be freed, from Hamas and Iran’s snd Quatar’s influence. Unlike those two countries Israel ACTUALLY has a proven track record of working with Palestinians on a civil and economic level and not like your crusader kings jihad DLC fantasy.
do you genuinely think that the actions of Israel are going to actually achieve the goal of killing every single Hamas member? what the Israeli government is doing is actively building support for radical action, because the position Israel is taking, the actions they’re taking, are unreasonable and abhorrent. if your goal is to kill all the insurgents, you lose. because there is no practical way to do that without victimizing the population, killing innocent people, and driving the survivors of that terror campaign into insurgency themselves. we’ve seen this play out before, in so many places. Israel is doing nothing but ensuring the continuation of this conflict.
Unlike those two countries Israel ACTUALLY has a proven track record of working with Palestinians on a civil and economic level and not like your crusader kings jihad DLC fantasy.
maybe there was a track record. there isn’t one any more. the only record the people of Gaza care about is the death toll. how are they expected to trust a country so willing to deliver death, disease, and famine upon them? how are we, as people who care for the lives of our fellow human beings, expected to side with racists and murderers? Hamas is a blight, no doubt, but it is a response to decades of oppression and harm, harm that Israel is gleefully embracing, even as the world turns against them. the kind of dysfunction that makes a state do what Israel is doing is not worth preserving. the kind of ideology that could justify what is happening right now is not worth fighting for.
Hamas is a blight, no doubt, but it is a response to decades of oppression and harm, harm that Israel is gleefully embracing, even as the world turns against them. the kind of dysfunction that makes a state do what Israel is doing is not worth preserving. the kind of ideology that could justify what is happening right now is not worth fighting for.
Very well put. It reminds me of the quote:
If there were an Oscar for best theatrical performance by a country, Israel would win every year. It’s a country based on theater. It’s a lunatic state - completely insane.
Norman Finkelstein
Statistics
So you view all Gazans as terrorists, got it.
Your conclusion is wrong from what they say. Don’t project and polarise. Killing civilians is horrible and must be stopped. But that’s different from targeting them as terrorists. And you know that! How will this mess be ever solved if even on the most basic level are these stupid dramatisation and accusations?
Targeting terrorists with bombs while civilians are about makes you a terrorist as well. Bombs kill indiscriminately.
Especially if they turned Gaza into a concentration camp.
As Jews they really should know better.
If they were actually after terrorists, they would send in foot soldiers who can determine who is a terrorists and who is being used as human shield.
Yes I know, it was a facetious comment because anyone still supporting Israel appears to be in a different reality than I, and I see no point in debating this issue.
You made a typo. Let me fix it.
propoganda: israel doesn’t shell indiscriminately, they targets terrorists.
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Biden to Bibi: “don’t make the same mistakes we made in 9/11. There’s no reason why we had to be in a war in Afghanistan.”
There’s really no reason why we had to be in a war in Iraq. Afghanistan… yeah, probably not there, either, especially given how intimately we understood how well they had been trained at guerilla warfare against foreign invaders.
Although, that’s not guite accurate; there were reasons, they were just serving different, less publically recognized, purposes. Much like Netanyahu’s war.
make no mistake - Netanyahu has his faults, many even, but no country should and would accept the terror act hamas did and do nothing
Good thing that basically every other action you could do falls between “do nothing”, and “commit ethnic cleansing”, so they’ve got a lot to choose from!
Too bad they decided to go with the ethnic cleansing instead.
This shit goes back further than people here care to investigate…
"The Antichrist will pass by this salty barren area i.e. Madinah, in a passage of a canal. Most of those who will come out to him will be women so that a man will return to his intimate wife, mother, daughter, sister or aunt to tie them up for fear that they might go out to him. Then, Allah will afflict him with Muslims who kill him and his followers and the Jews will hide behind a tree or a rock and the rock or the tree will say to the Muslim: There is a Jew behind me, come and kill him!”
This Hadith was reported by Ahmad in his Musnad. About 1200 years ago.
I don’t know what relevance you think scripture has to this conflict, but despite what Israel would like to claim this is not a religious war, this is a settler-colonial project driven by modern, western Imperialism. Religion is being used by Netanyahu and Likud in the most cynical, blasphemous way, in order to justify their murderous acts.
You think religion wasn’t being used by Hamas to justify Oct 7?
Not an any practical level.
It certainly hasn’t been weaponized by them to deflect criticism of their actions by international observers, like Israel has been doing.
I haven’t really seen any accusations that being anti-Hamas (the political entity) is Islamophobic, only that being anti-Palestinian (the people) is, which is true.
Contrast that to Israel and its supporters very openly pushing the narrative that being anti-Israel (the political entity) is antisemitic, not just being anti-Israeli (the people).
Do you not think Israel could have killed pretty much everyone in Gaza if they were interested in ethnic cleansing?
Meanwhile Hamas really did do their best to ethically cleanse, and have said they would do it again given a chance.
The reality is still pretty bad: at least 10,000 civilians killed and it seems Bibi wants to push all Gazans out of Gaza altogether in their mission to root out Hamas.
In case you don’t know the definition of ethnic cleansing, forced removals are ethnic cleansing, so even by your own comment they’re engaged in it.
Hamas is a terrorist organization, and Israel reaped what they sowed by supporting Hamas for a decade in order to delegitimize the Palestinian National Authority.
Palestinians are not Hamas, and Israel is exploiting people conflating them to deflect blame for their genocide and ethnic cleansing.
Am aware of Bibi supporting Hamas. It was a cynical ploy by him.
Bibi required five (re)elections to resume power. There were huge protests for ten days when he wanted to control the judiciary.
Palestinians are not Hamas
Istaelis are not Likud
Israelis are not Likud
That’s why I try to be very deliberate in differentiating between “Israel”, which is a country and government, and “Israelis”, which are the people who live there.
As an American, I’m extremely mindful of this distinction:
Being anti-American is bigotry based on national origin.
Being anti-America is a moral and justified position against an Imperial, settler-colonialist state that kills millions around the globe.
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Yupp.
Well Iraq, the first time, yes. They invaded Kuwait which in my opinion did legitimise the first gulf war (though opinions may vary). Though IMO it should have happened under UN flag but of course the security council is forever locked into a stalemate.
The second war, no. Whatever it was… Made-up WMD’s, funding of military industrial complex, Dubya’s desire to finish daddy’s pet project, whatever. A real reason there was not.
Strong words from the anti ceasefire country. A real moral stand here.
Sounds like a lot of hot air coming from the guy who bypassed congress to float an extra $106,000,000 so the IDF can use more guns and bombs on civilians.
I used to be a vote blue no matter who, afraid of Trump fascism, but a statement must be made that this is not okay.
He’s already walked it back again anyway. https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/world/israel-gaza-war-live-white-house-walks-back-biden-remarks-that-israel-was-losing-international-support-over-gaza-bombing/ar-AA1lqsz4
It was probably just a gesture to appease his moderate backers consdering he’s doing pretty badly in the polls.
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Didn’t he just go all “I’m a Zionist?” And claim that he will never stop supporting Israel? Somehow I think he is being a bit disingenuous here.
Clearly speaking out of both sides of his mouth and it’s glaringly obvious.
You expect Biden to remember what he said from one moment to the next?
One fascist to another “dude, can you chill for a sec? you’re making me look bad”
Joe Biden is a fascist? Lol
Yep
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Click here to see the summary
WASHINGTON, Dec 12 (Reuters) - U.S. President Joe Biden said on Tuesday that Israel is losing support over its “indiscriminate” bombing of Gaza and that Benjamin Netanyahu should change his hardline government, exposing a new rift in relations with the Israeli prime minister.
Biden’s remarks, made to donors to his 2024 re-election campaign, were his most critical to date of Netanyahu’s handling of Israel’s war in Gaza.
They are a stark contrast to his literal and political embrace of the Israeli leader days after Hamas militants’ Oct. 7 attack on southern Israel.
Biden, who often speaks off the cuff at his fundraising events, spoke at a Washington hotel to a crowd of about a hundred that included a number of Jewish attendees.
The sharp comments came as Biden’s national security adviser, Jake Sullivan, prepares to travel to Israel for talks with the Israeli war cabinet.
Netanyahu said in a statement on Tuesday that Israel had received “full backing” from the U.S. for its ground incursion into Gaza and that Washington had blocked “international pressure to stop the war”.
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