I was there, I saw the thread. @TheDude, did you? It was pretty strongly in favour. Do we really need to keep waiting around to see if an instance administrated by a guy who wants to declare “cis” a slur is going to turn out okay?
https://sh.itjust.works/post/216888 for context.
my dude just dont subscribe to those communities. this whole “defederate them because i dont agree with them” will ruin the entire fediverse
This. Not wanting to see certain content is a ‘you’ problem, not a ‘server’ problem.
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It’s not possible for users to block/hide instance from /all yet. Or every user from an instance everywhere
I think you are right and rule should be simple: if they are doing something illegal ban them immediately. If not, go and change the laws and don’t force us to be judges and responsible, because it can become easy to defederate anyone.
Today it is about transfobia (which I would hope not to have anywhere near me) but tomorrow might be something what is not bad, but some people just don’t like.
We will end up in the same hateful place reddit has been for some years now.
TLDR: We should change the laws and not fight with virtual ignoring.
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Problem here is not you want to achieve, but wider consequences of it.
We are all just discussing options and learning what is the best course of action. Mistakes will be made but I hope will be fixed too.
Lemmy just had big growth and no one was ready for it, pushing for drastic measures is fair, but we will challenge that idea.
Additionally try to also speak about other problems it will cause and how to prevent it.
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I really don’t like this flood of “can we defed this instance because i don’t like their ideology” posts.
Sure, you (and me) might find it offensive, but some others might not, and it shouldn’t be us that get to decide what is right for them.I agree that genuinely illegal/unethical instances like that anime cp one mentioned in another comment should be defederated, but I believe these political instances (exploding heads, lemmygrad, etc) should be federated with, and the user should be the one that blocks them.
Maybe this would be different if there were a lot of extremist instances that the user would have to block individually, but with the current low amount I think it’s best to give the user the choice.
Allowing transphobic views to spread online makes people feel more comfortable harassing us in our dms, calling us slurs, and telling us to kill ourselves, or harassing us in public. Then they rally together pass laws to take our children away, throw us in jail, and ban us from recieving basic life-saving healthcare.
Edit: When it isn’t banned, then we have to take the time to explain all this to the uninitiated and hope they won’t ignore us or say we’re being extremist too. It’s exhausting. Banning it outright takes that weight off us. Case in point, the N word used to be a lot more common on the internet. Now far fewer people feel comfortable saying that shit casually, and we don’t have to discuss why people shouldn’t say it. The message is clear: act like this and you aren’t welcome here.
I hear ya. Quick question, do you dislike Beehaw? I’m considering whether it’s appropriate to promote for vulnerable people to join safe spaces like that, or lemmy.blahaj.zone. Those instances will defederate swiftly from instances with similar concerns for safety. There are many instances that are not pomoted as safe spaces, and there are some that are, and I’m wondering if the question of defederation could be transferred to a recommendation to join a safe space and not an open space where no such safeguards are set due to a higher preference for free access? Let me know what you think.
BeeHaw, I heard it was family friendly and defederating a lot so I didn’t want to get walled off from non-family friendly content right away. Maybe I was too quick to judge. Blahaj is pretty cool. Those seem like solid suggestions.
Ultimately, we haven’t settled down into our own echo chambers yet (which is pretty normal on the internet, keeping things tribal), so things are bound to be more stormy with this new surge of users as they find their homes. Ultimately, people will probably flock between instances based on admin rules and enforcement that most aligns with their own values. Until then I’ll keep recommending transphobes shove a pineapple up their ass sideways and centrists who want to let transphobes and racists advocate for our extermination to do the same.
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Well, after thinking about it, I don’t want to put too much labor on admins. I think it’s wise to keep more power in the hands of the user, so I’d like users to be able to block instances instead of relying on defederation. They can defederate if they want to but mostly for issues that affect the health of their own instance. And mods can mod.
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Does vlemmy defederate anything? The Instances list doesn’t seem to show any blocked instance.
Ok, sorry, I’m a little buzzed and feisty currently. After thinking about this in context of the best options for users and the health of the community as a whole:
As a user, I’d like to be able to block instances if I see a need. I don’t think this is possibly yet, but I can block communities and individual users, which is useful.
At the admin/instance level, defederating would be a temp or permanant nuke, for defederating from instances that cause bigger issues like allowing bots to manipulate votes, spreading hate, or exposing their intended audience to content they don’t want to allow (child friendly instance such as BeeHaw blocks porn, fair play) per the admin’s discretion
Last but not least, Mods are only responsible for posts on their own communities and pruning comments or blocking users who violate their rules or the instances rules. (They should be able to report to admins/the instance when a user was blocked for violating instance rules so the admin can consider banning across the instance if necessary).
I have thought of developing an anti-instance block, but since I would definitely not use it I haven’t gone forward with it. But it seems quite an easy task, to be honest. A script would just go over any post or comment, check the community’s instance, check the poster/commenter’s instance, and if any of the two match, it can simply do node.deleteNode() and that’s it, ez pz. It’d probably take me less than an hour to do this.
I haven’t heard of vlemmy defederating. My main reason for joining this instance was so I didn’t have to provide an email address, which was the first priority for me due to added privacy. Long ago, reddit never required email addresses, so I think that’s a good feature for now (protecting against bots is another can of worms altogether). I may shift to another instance soon, we’ll see.
But free speech, I don’t think people started advocating for free speech so they could coexist with nazis and bigots. I imagine it was more for allowing criticism of people in positions of power, like government figures, admins, and mods without repercussions (executing people, throwing them in jail, banning, etc). If you’re merely advocating for transphobia and racial slurs, what the fuck is the point of protecting “free speech”? Why would someone even value that?
Edit: To put it another way, I won’t choose to be part of an instance whose admin allows open bigotry in their own content or stays federated with other instances that allow bigotry, cp, neo-nazis, or alt-right communities to thrive. I realize that at a more granular level, I will have to use my own discretion and power to block whoever I see fit or switch instances, but I can also use my voice to advocate that admins not allow that shit either.
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This is all easy to say for non-trans folk who aren’t being targeted for the next genocide. If we allow users like this to hide behind crypto-fascist rhetoric, vulnerable minority communities will be overwhelmed and pushed out by the sheer volume of hatred.
I am completely unfamiliar with federation as a concept so there may not be a way to effectively moderate an entire instance consisting of several communities, but if there is a way to protect vulnerable communities without de-federaring, it needs to be done.
This is a tough call. I see where you’re coming from, I really do, but saying things like “target for the next genocide” really isnt going to win over anyone on the fence.
Edit: I do live in one of the most trans friendly places in Canada though. If you’re from the southern states (or worse) I can see why it’d feel that way.
I have a non-binary kid. It’s not an exaggeration or imagination. People have made death threats against them. They’re under twelve years old.
You only think it’s exaggerated because you’re sheltered from it.
I’m not saying anyone is imagining things. I’m very sorry to hear your child has gone through that but it’s good you are supportive of them.
I’m not sheltered from it. Believe it or not I have enby and trans friends. I have heard stories, I know there are awful people out there, that’s not what I’m saying.
My point is, as an alley, if I pause when I read it phrased that way, just imagine how the people who are already struggling to understand will read it.
You know what I mean?
You having those friends doesn’t mean you’re not sheltered if you live in a place where it’s not happening as much.
You mentioned the southern states so you know what’s going on it just isn’t in your face or affecting you, hence “sheltered”.
Well I’ve heard a lot worse from other continents, but call me sheltered if you want, miss my pont, that’s fine. No I don’t have a non-binary kid in the states, that sounds rough, I’m sorry.
All I’m saying is maybe on place like this with clearly more diverse viewpoints (a good thing) I’m mindful on how the “other side” might read those words and take the problem less seriously as a result.
I hope your kid is doing well and that you both stay safe.
WHY are vulnerable people joining a decentralized system? Isnt this why you want a closed, not for public eyes community?
Also genocide? What? Acceptance is extremely high and on the up thanks to a plethora of institutions working HARD to improve the image of trans people. You dismiss all their hard work by calling trans people ripe for genocide.
You have some extreme views and I recommend you touch some grass, not even ironically. Nobody is planning a genocide on trans people.
WHY are vulnerable people joining a decentralized system?
For the same reason wheelchair users leave the house after dark
Anyway, “public” doesn’t mean “hate speech friendly.”
Transgender people are not disabled. They know exactly what their personal shortcomings are.
There are a plethora of fediverses that are locked down tight and remove everything that would even mildly trigger people.
Im all for banning nazis and trolls but I think its healthy to keep discussions.
I know this fediverse will defederate and I explained in another comment that im completely fine with it. If people dont want to hear centrist opinions thats up to them. Not me.
I personally use the block button if I feel I dont want to see someones opinion and I encourage everyone to do the same with me they dont want to see my comments.
Everyone always thinks allowing a bunch of opinions will make everything dissolve in a right wing nightmarish shithole. You can still set boundaries which the EH admins did.
And lets not forget that the admins of EH always were upfront and honest they would ban nazis or extreme views. This has been confirmed multiple times. Point it out to them and they will ban them.
They know exactly what their personal shortcomings are.
Care to elaborate on that point?
No person is perfect, its important to know what triggers you. They can manage fine deciding what content they dont want to see.
If they cant they should find a closed server run by admins that protect them from literally everything. Reddit for example.
If you think Reddit protects trans people… you really have no idea.
It’s sounded like you were implying something a lot worse.
https://www.erininthemorning.com/p/june-anti-trans-legislative-risk
Transphobes want us dead, call it whatever you like. Whether or not acceptance is high in general, the extremists are still fighting hard at the state level in the US, which usually spreads ideologically to other countries.
Easy, we defederate all Americans.
Moving the goalposts. You call this a genocide, its a far cry from it. About half the states respect, and provide support.
Whatever they do in red states isnt nice, but you arent being genocided by a bunch of boomers.
In fact, I think you are vulgar for comparing your strugglings with people like the jewish, ughurs, black africans who got and get genocided on a daily basis.
You dont know what struggle is and this makes your comment very tasteless.
I also notice a weird concidence where most transgender people I meet in real life have zero of the struggles outlined by people online. They a job, partner and get sufficient healthcare. They are respected, except by people of certain religions.
Again, I will respectfully ask you to stop comparing your struggle to a genocide, as it is not.
You are a marginalized group that is bullied and pushed around by boomers in suits.
You are a marginalized group that is bullied and pushed around by boomers in suits.
Sounds like a struggle to me?
Well, let us assume that there is an instance X that specifically ban any instance that contains historical stuff about Holocaust and how bad it was. The instance X may not contain any Nazi propaganda, but you know that they are Nazi. Would you ban them or not?
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The honest answer is that we’re still trying to get The Agora running, and a backlog developed in the process. We are working on it, it’s just going to take some time to sort through the old votes. We’ve been focused on cleaning up the process so we don’t have this problem moving forward.
Thank you, I appreciate the honest answer.
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Why don’t we put it to a vote?
We did.
There. Done. Or it should be, if the objective of the server to be administrated based on votes is honest.
If you click on ‘Instances’ link on the very bottom of a page you can check who is defederated. Right now it looks to just be: burggit.moe lemmygrad.ml
Why burggit but not nazis?
Looks like they host that type of porn…
Why is it when a place claims to be for free thought and expression it’s always nonsense or harmful? Why does it have to be either fascist garbage, conspiracies that make absolutely no sense, or “artistic” pictures of children (photos or drawn)?
Because no other place tolerates them so they flock to any that do. That’s unfortunate reality of prioritizing ‘free speech’ over everything on a public internet space. You invite the baggage that comes with that.
Absolute free speech shouldn’t exist. If that were the case, we’d be giving a platform to the worst of the worst. The most vile, hateful speech should not be allowed to exist in a society that claims to want safety, respect for all, and prosperity.
The idea of absolute free speech requires the tolerance of hate, which allows the intolerant to drive out ideas that don’t align with theirs. See here, the Paradox of Tolerance.
Because reasonable moderation and common sense boundaries don’t prevent free thought and expression for most people. So the main people that look for “free speech” communities are wild extremists or people seeking illegal material.
Loli stuff isn’t exactly illegal or anything…
It is in Canada, where this instance is hosted.
Ah… Well still doesn’t explain why the Nazis are still ok…
Yeah that part I can’t explain. Tankies are a no go but the alt-right is a big debate?
It is in many jurisdictions and is in a quasi-potentially-illegal gray area in the US where there have been several federal convictions over it.
Hm.
It is in my country
Indeed, but we did vote strongly in favour of defederating exploding heads and I’m still seeing their alt-right garbage in my feed. I don’t have a lot more patience for people who clutch their pearls and wonder if it’s okay to infringe on the free speech rights of fascists than I do for the fascists themselves.
If you want to personally avoid it showing up on your feed you can just open the communities and block them (I don’t think there’s a way to block an entire instance yet unfortunately).
But yeah I understand that it’s not ideal to have to do that to avoid seeing their garbage in your feed to begin with.
“We”? In numerous places i’ve seen “we” being annoyed by this defederation warrior nonsense, but instead we could come up with some clear guidelines … as it is instated now, you can go by the orderly procedure and start a discussion thread … uh wait …
https://sh.itjust.works/post/281126
https://sh.itjust.works/post/229169
Or the extravagant way, get banned by the other instance: https://sh.itjust.works/post/225714clutch their pearls and wonder if it’s okay to infringe on the free speech rights of fascists than I do for the fascists themselves.
I didn’t know any of the instances were run by the government. Private companies (in this case, instances) can deplatform whoever they like and it’s not infringement. They are under no obligation, be it legal or just a back room handshake deal, to allow any speech on their platform.
Whoever is clutching their pearls over it is either ill informed or disingenuous. There are plenty of both kinds of people spouting misinformation and disinformation.
They’re not, and they can absolutely decide to host or ban whatever they want. But I don’t think they should.
When you start banning things you don’t like, you end up creating an echo chamber, and then you eventually get to the divisiveness that we have today. Liberals flock to X, Y, Z platforms, and conservatives flock to A, B, C platforms. That’s a problem, because it eliminates any kind of cross-pollination of ideas.
That said, not all ideas are worth hosting. Harassment is never okay, so any individual, community, or instance that protects those who harass others should be blocked. But just having different ideas shouldn’t be grounds for blocking.
We should absolutely not support cancel culture in any form, we should instead encourage dialogue. Instead of blocking people that think trans people are gross or whatever, we should be open to explaining how those views hurt real people. If you convince just one person, they’ll influence others and we’ll make progress toward broader acceptance. I draw the line at actual harassment, but ignorance shouldn’t result in a ban.
So that’s why I urge restraint when blocking communities. We really don’t want to go down the road of blocking things we don’t like because that just puts up walls that fragments an already fragile community.
God this argument is old and tired. Why don’t we just sit down with the fascists, surely if they understand we have feelings that they’re hurting, they’ll stop threatening us and our families. We just need to be nicer to them!
You people don’t know any of the history of the 1930s.
There’s certainly a difference between an actual fascist (i.e. they literally don’t believe you should be allowed to live) and people you just disagree with. The first is a very small minority of people, yet a much larger group is labeled as such.
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I checked the link. Its basically two guys. Just block them and u wont see any more of their posts.
Honestly I think you should go to Beehaw if you dont want to get triggered by some dumb boomer jokes.
Same for the cis joke. Its just a silly joke. And you took the bait hook line and sinker to push your personal agenda.
Whatever happens is fine with me, people can always make a back up on EH to follow the drama and meme subs.
I think most EH members also have alts on various other federations. I know I do.
Are we talking about Elon? Because he’s making “cis” a slur across all of twitter.
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no
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you know, i come across posts like yours far more frequently than the stuff you complain about- just a fyi
Good. I’m glad you see more people wanting to shut down fascists than you see fascists.
okay, well, i’ll just add you to my blocklist and move on i guess.
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Yeah it would seem so.
I like to imagine they created each account manually, angrily downvoting me, whilst completely forgetting karma isn’t a thing here.
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My impression is that a lot of the new users from the reddit influx explicitly use downvotes as a way to signal their disagreement with an opinion. As a result, several instances have disabled downvotes to shield themselves from this unwanted internet culture. There have also been working proof of concepts of articifial downvote bots, using such tools would be in line with the reddit culture as I’ve experienced it.
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That’s how the system technically works, not the rules on my instance.
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