cross-posted from: https://lemmy.zip/post/614691
Video: https://www.bbc.com/news/av/world-middle-east-66252974
Someone new got approved to burn another one outside the Iraqi embassy in Stockholm, that’s why there’s a new reaction.
Tbh I personally don’t think it should be allowed to actively provoke and incite hatred against an ethnic group. Sweden already has a law specifically against this (incitement against ethnic group), which lists religious belief as a group covered by the law. However, there has only been one case that went to the courts trying specifically a Quran burning, and the context was a bit different so it was dismissed. The Quran burning previous to the one in the article has been reported to the police, and imo it should go to trial so we can test the limits of the incitement law. That Quran was burned directly as a statement outside a mosque, during Eid, which is a context that could be illegal under that law.
To clarify, people should be able to burn whatever books and symbols they want and express whatever vile or justified opinions they have under freedom of speech in Sweden- but not in every context and forum everywhere, as direct provocation and incitement. This is actually the majority opinion of Swedes (source in Swedish).
But we’ll see what happens. I discussed this with a lawyer I know, who agreed that it should be prosecuted and go to trial so we can see how it fares in court.
I think it’s stupid, moronic, and childish to burn Qur’ans and other associated acts of deliberate provocation, but (and this is admittedly the American in me speaking), I’d very strongly be against it being a crime. The ability to tolerate strong disagreements with your own closely held beliefs is a foundational pillar of a multi-cultural and tolerant society.
Countless acts of terror have been committed in the name of the Bible, and I’m rather uncomfortable with the idea of being legally obligated to have any amount of reverence to it.
Let’s separate a hate crime (incitement against ethnic group) from blasphemy laws- we definitely do not want blasphemy laws in Sweden. Critique against religions is protected free speech, as it should be.
What isn’t protected, is your right to protest in EVERY way at EVERY place and EVERY time. Just like defamation laws are a specific reduction to the right to free speech, one can morally argue that if the intention of certain speech is to defame, grossly disrespect, provoke and incite certain protected groups of people, a reduction to the right to free speech is justified in certain contexts. I know lots of people disagree, all I’m saying is that there’s an argument for limiting free speech in some contexts (which we already do).
Feel free to have a Quran barbecue in your own back yard, but don’t throw a bacon-and-Quran barbecue in front of a mosque during Eid. You are also, certainly, allowed to criticize Islam wherever and whenever you want, that is protected speech. It’s just no longer protected when the context, manner and purpose of an action or message tips the scales from critique to incitement or hate speech.
An example of someone who actually was convicted of incitement against ethnic groups in Sweden in 2020, was a junior high school student who carved a swastika into a desk. If that is covered under the incitement law, burning the Quran in the recent contexts should be too imo (in front of embassies to Muslim countries, or mosques during the biggest Muslim holiday).
America is extreme in it’s own right with regards to free speech laws compared to the rest of the Western world. I respect that position, but don’t agree with it.
A school is not a public place, and so that isn’t an equivalent example. If the sidewalk in front of the Masjid is a public area, you should legally be able to throw a bacon-and-Koran barbecue during Eid. There is no world where you can punish people for doing that and not end up on a slippery slope that jeopardizes freedom of expression.
I understand what you’re saying, but to actually act on that and try to put it into law would be foolish.
We already have that law, so the only thing up for debate is interpretation? Which legal experts are busy with debating now in public discourse in Swedish media, with no clear consensus except that it should be tried in court. I understand what you mean by slippery slope, but if everything is a slippery slope we would never be able to legislate anything. And let me remind you, both Sweden and the US have already imposed certain limits to the right to free speech. Defamation, for example, is not protected speech.
I disagree that a public school isn’t a public place, but you’re technically right. It doesn’t really matter in the eyes of the Swedish law though, arguably it would be worse legally if the student had carved the swastika on a public playground outside, rather then in a semi-public spot in a school.
My mistake, I thought he was proposing a change / new law. I personally just disagree with that law then, I don’t think that creeds should be protected from hateful messages. Unless the messages amount to harassment or breaking another existing, more general law, I don’t necessarily see the issue it’s solving.
No problem. It’s good to have well reasoned, civilized debates- we don’t have to agree at the end!
If the sidewalk in front of the Masjid is a public area, you should legally be able to throw a bacon-and-Koran barbecue during Eid.
I kind of disagree. If you want to have a backyard bbq and burn Korans during Eid, go for it. But if you’re doing it on the sidewalk outside a mosque, your sole intent is to incite the people inside. It’s no longer about your ‘personal freedoms’.
I kind of agree, but I think it would need to be more than just burning a Qu’ran, you’d also need some inflammatory speech, like “death to Muslims” or something that would be intended to move them to violence.
Regardless, I do think there are circumstances where burning a holy book could be included as evidence in a hate crime case.
Thats a realistic interpretation of what those bbqers intent would be, but I dont think you can realistically make that illegal as the sidewalk is a public area. (I am assuming these bbqers are not breaking any other laws at all.)
Why would it being a public area prohibit making it illegal? There are tons of things that are illegal on a public sidewalk. Urination, intoxication, etc.
Because assuming theyre not breaking any other laws, I dont think you can differentiate the public place outside of a masjid from any other public place. Urination and intoxication are illegal in all public places.
To be clear, I think we both agree that there is a lot of nuance and grey area in these kinds of questions, and I think it’s really just a matter of where we think the lines ought to be, which is a very hard question given the lack of any clear objective standards here. I might say that a swastika is a very clear expression of support for the idea that large swaths of society should be systematically murdered, and that’s more than sufficiently past a line of permissiveness. Surely burning a swastika and any other expression of strong disagreement with literal Nazism should be completely protected.
At the same time, as a gay man, Islamist ideals represent a very direct threat to my own ability to safely exist in society. Should I not be able to express my disapproval of that? If I can, in what ways exactly should I be allowed to, where is the line I cannot cross, and why is there precisely? The Muslim Brotherhood, for instance, is an explicitly Islamist party with very specific policy goals. Its flag also features a Qur’an on it. If Muslims were to be grievously offended by its burning, should it thus be illegal for me to burn the flag of an organization that explicitly advocates my own murder? The Qur’an itself (not to mention the Bible) similarly advocates for my own personal harm. You mention “certain protected groups of people” in your comment; are LGBT not included in that? Do we not get to stand up against ideals that advocate for our own destruction?
I should add that I’ve spent a significant amount of time in Arab countries, speak Arabic myself, and have had many wonderful experiences with Muslims around the world. I actually made an indefinite move to Jordan after university, and while I didn’t wind up being able to stick around, it was an excellent time, I always felt very welcomed and safe, and just generally speaking, I have a very warm and positive impression of Muslims. I’m very much not actually advocating for these kinds of protests, and I think the people who do them are being deliberately inciteful bigoted idiots. My only point here is that these kinds of question are very complicated, and to that end, I’m not personally super comfortable with the government unilaterally deciding what the answers to them are.
I also want to make it expliticly clear that I am very aware of how various Islamophobic groups try to use homophobia in Muslims as a wedge to try to advocate against immigration, multculturalism, and as proof that Muslims are somehow incompatible with western society, which is always amusing to see given that the people who do this are almost universally homophobic social conservatives themselves. I’m strongly against that as well.
Well spoken, I agree with almost everything you wrote.
As to your question regarding what other groups are protected under the same law:
[…] ethnic group or other such group of persons with reference to race, colour, national or ethnic origin, creed, sexual orientation or transgender identity or expression […]
While I understand your hesitation, I fully feel that there are some groups that should be especially protected from deliberate persecution and harassment. Sweden has had a huge influx of Muslim immigrants in recent years, and prejudice is rampant. I would argue that you are much more exposed and discriminated against as an Arab or Muslim in Sweden today, than as a Jew, LGBTQ person, or black person.
That said, Islamism has absolutely no place in a democracy and the undercurrents of conservatism in the world (Islamism, the Republican party in the US, pro life movement, anti-trans sentiments etc) scare me. We should never sustain rules or practices in society based on religious commandments, especially when those infringe on the rights of other groups. Sweden is deeply secular, and I firmly hope we remain so.
For sure, and again, I’m absolutely not trying to deny the existence of prejudice against Muslims or Arabs. As I said - and this is very much my own American experience speaking here as well - I do have a level of discomfort with the government deciding where those lines of acceptable conduct are with issues that are as messy and controversial as religion, even if I strongly abhor the conduct in question. But then again, I can also understand the desire to protect vulnerable groups, and I won’t pretend that “just grow a thicker skin lol” is a particularly useful policy prescription.
I suppose the closest analogue we’ve had over here are the “God hates fags” people from the Westboro Baptist Church from a decade and change ago. While that’s activity that is very blatantly intended to grossly disrespect, offend and provoke people, I don’t think it’s an unjust expectation for society to place on us to maintain a level of civility and peace, even in the face of such explicit incitement. The correct thing to do in a civil society in such situations is to move on with one’s life and ignore it (unless the activity escalates to actual violence or direct consistent harassment), and I’d simply apply the exact same standards in this situation. Just as I should be able to maintain self-control in the face of someone telling me I’m an evil perverted faggot who deserves to burn in hell for eternity, a Muslim should equally be able to remain peaceful in the face of some pieces of paper being burnt (even if, again, both actions are pretty vile).
As I said though, I acknowledge that there’s a lot of nuance here and that different societies may have different standards and principles with things like this. At the very least, the intention is obviously to protect vulnerable and marginalized people, and I’ll always support that in principle, even if the details get messy.
Yes, it’s definitely a very polarizing and personal question with no clear right or wrong. And I am also aware that there can be side effects to laws that unintentionally strike too broadly. It’s vital to protect the constitutional laws that protect our democracies, and limit restrictions to those laws.
I personally think you as a gay person absolutely should be protected from harassment from groups like the Westboro Baptist Church. My opinion is that they have the right to think that “God hates fags”, they have the right to say it, they have the right to proclaim it publicly (possibly; it depends), individuals might even have the right to say it to your face. What they shouldn’t have, is the right to picket in front of your home, place of work or LGBTQ meeting spaces, or follow you around. Then it becomes harassment and persecution. And in Sweden, possibly illegal, if done in a manner and context that violates you as a member of a protected group.
I think that’s a valid and reasonable limitation to free speech, but yes, it’s murky waters. There’s a lot of debate now (and no consensus) in Swedish media about the current limits to free speech and where the line should be drawn.
Ironically many of the people who are absolutist right now (we should always be allowed to burn Qurans everywhere every time, it’s free speech, the Muslims have such thin skin) are often the same people who want to ban “trans story hour” for children in libraries 🤷♂️
What they shouldn’t have, is the right to picket in front of your home, place of work or LGBTQ meeting spaces, or follow you around. Then it becomes harassment and persecution.
Totally agreed, though I’d mention that the mere act of burning a book that you yourself own is not any of those things. As you say though, there’s a lot of legitimate debate to be had here, and I have to add, it’s very refreshing that we’ve been able to actually have a conversation about these things in a respectful manner.
Ironically many of the people who are absolutist right now (we should always be allowed to burn Qurans everywhere every time, it’s free speech, the Muslims have such thin skin) are often the same people who want to ban “trans story hour” for children in libraries 🤷♂️
Yep, absolutely, which is why I’m always extremely skeptical of giving these kinds of people any light of day. I’ve seen way too many gay people get sucked down Islamophobic conservative rabbit holes simply because they’re given a simple enemy to blame, and that’s far easier than having to acknowledge the complexity and nuance in everything.
At any rate, I certainly wish you all the best in navigating these issues, and if people are able to actually maintain some level of mutual respect and civil dialogue, I’m confident we’ll eventually figure it out. I’m actually going to be in Sweden next year for Eurovision, and I’m really looking forward to it!
The swasitka anecdote is a false equivalency. Schools are not part of the public forum, so freedom of speech also should not fully apply there. What would have happened if said school boy would have drawn a swastika on, idk, the sidewalk of the street leading up to the school?
It would arguably be worse, since you are allowed to wear swastikas in private. You cannot wear them about town, that’s legally considered a hate crime.
Controversial opinion of an atheist:
Most religion is incitement to hate-crimes. While I think Sweden has probably bigger Christian societies and should probably rather burn bibles, the guy burning the Quran is an Iraqi, and therefore choosing the Quran is understandable. Afaik, he protested against his own former repression by Muslim religion whe still lived in Iraq.
Religion is notoriously used to reduce other people’s freedom. Be it fundamental Christians e.g. in the US or Poland denying healthcare to pregnant women, be it the atrocities committed by the “moral police” in Iran, be it other religions killing people for their sexuality. I support the idea that religious law should be limited to followers of that religion, and no person should be forced in any way to follow or keeps following any religion. Those are fundamental human rights principles in my eyes.
I mean, as a fellow atheist I don’t disagree. What I’m saying is that there are groups that are targeted (in Swedish society) specifically for their affiliation with a religion, their sexual orientation etc. Protesting religions is fine and IS protected speech.
But certain actions are only meant to provoke, disrespect and incite. The Iraqi guy is well within his rights to protest and criticize Islam; the question here is whether the manner of his “protest” was protected speech or if choosing that specific action, time and place for his protest, all taken together, tip the scales from valid and protected religious critique into something else. If the main intent was to incite, disrespect and provoke, it might not be protected speech.
That said, I’m not a fan of most religions. Specifically when religion is used as a justification to impose prescriptive and restrictive rules on others both within and outside of that religion (pro life, gender roles, prescriptive clothing like Muslim head coverings, prescriptive rules regarding birth control or sex, discrimination or persecution of LGBTQ people etc).
Why is being disrespectful towards religions even an issue? I do not respect them and have in fact strong contempt for religions. I consider islam a new cancer growing, after we finally managed to largely push Christianity out of policy making and into the realm of personal choice in the west.
What part of the west are you from? Lol
In many places, it’s still an ongoing battle.
I think every member of society is entitled to a minimum level of respect. Some groups of people in society face more discrimination and harassment than others due to some common attribute they have, and my opinion is that they should be legally protected from that.
You are in your rights to think Islam is a cancer, you are free to protest Islam publicly, whenever and wherever. The difference is that your critique of Islam is legal and valid, but you can’t target Muslims. Certain actions combined with a place and time can turn valid critique into incitement.
which lists religious belief as a group covered by the law
If followers of a denomination of the Invisible pink unicorn (bbHhh) are provoked by people wearing pink clothes because one of their holy books says such people should receive the death penalty, does that therefor make wearing pink clothes illegal in Sweden?
No, it doesn’t? Laws are interpreted by legal practitioners and judges, and the intentionality of the law is taken into account. One of the main intentions of this particular law is protecting Jews from persecution, and protecting Muslims from the same isn’t a huge stretch. Sure, you could argue that invisible pink unicorn followers are a protected group, but no one would take you seriously in Sweden. You are arguing an extreme interpretation in bad faith.
Yes, but the law you proposed would allow that to happen. That isn’t a straw man, it’s your proposed idea not being very good.
It’s not my proposed idea, it’s an actual, contemporary Swedish law which has existed since 1948. What is up for debate is how that law is to be interpreted in this instance, what constitutes “creed” (in, perhaps, a better translation of the original Swedish instead of “religious belief”), and what constitutes a “message” and whether burning a Quran is valid criticism of Islam or if doing it at that time and place is a hate crime targeting Muslims. It hasn’t been tried in the Swedish supreme court whether Quran burning in certain contexts like the recent events is illegal under that law or not.
Technically, sure, you could argue that everything can be a religious belief/creed and any belief is covered under that law. But that is not how the law is interpreted and used in practice. I would consider that a strawman argument then, because it intentionally misrepresents the spirit of that law.
That makes sense. I guess I don’t really see the point of the law. If a message of hate goes too far, it would already fall other applicable laws against harassment or discrimination. Why does there need to be legislation specifically protecting against hate crimes?
I mean, that’s a matter of personal opinion (and you are entitled to yours). Legality aside, I personally think some groups should have special protections as they are often targets of discrimination or harassment specifically because of their affiliation with a certain group. That includes race/ethnicity, religion, sexuality, gender identity etc.
Of course, these people are also individually protected from harassment and discrimination through other laws as you say, but the incitement law protects them as a group and from being targeted in certain ways. You are allowed to publicly protest against Judaism, but not to publicly wear swastikas (a symbol of the horror of the Holocaust).
I understand that mindset and agree with its validity (especially the Holocaust example). I think putting that into law effectively is extremely difficult, as many people would draw the lines differently as to what should be applicable.
what if the world was made of pudding
If you feign ignorance, and pretend that you don’t know the difference between a belief held by billions of humans, and some corny, uncreative shit you just came up with off the top of your head, does that therefore make you an actual dumbass?
If it were a Bible or a Torah that was burned we wouldn’t be having this conversation now because it wouldn’t have even made the news. There is only one major religion that reacts violently to incidents like this. I think that’s the point OP was making and it’s a valid one.
Way to completely miss (or ignore) the point I made.
But you’re right, Christians have never committed violence in the name of their faith… Lol
That’s not the same argument. Christians rarely, if ever, commit violence because of a public demonstration like burning a Bible or creating a likeness of Jesus. Christians do commit violence for other reasons though, but not for something that many would interpret as protected speech in western countries.
If you shout “FIRE!” in a crowded building (e.g. a theater), you could be held liable for the panic that could ensue. Likewise, intentionally doing things that you know would encourage violence either locally or elsewhere in the world as a direct result of the speech could be held to the same standard.
So what’s being outlawed here isn’t the burning of the Qu’ran, but the intentional incitement, which is very similar to the charges against former President Trump WRT the events of Jan. 6. If you did the same thing in a Christian context (e.g. by parading homoerotic images of Jesus outside a Baptist Church on Christmas or something), you could likely be charged. It’s the intention here that’s illegal, not the specific act.
Actually there may very well have been news about a public Torah burning, considering the rise in anti-Semitism across the world has a lot of people worried. And a bible burning could easily go viral on Christian nationalist social media and news stations across America.
Honestly the hatred incited is a personal problem and not that of the book burners…
Jokes on them, there were like ten korans in that building.
burning a holy book is very disrespectful. Sadly, you missed the point
I completely agree its disrespectful, Kinda like some would say burning down a building is a bit disrespectful…
Being disrespectful is generally not, nor should it be, a crime.
Someone being disrespectful isn’t even close the being the government’s business. You can be as disrespectful as you want, burn a Koran every day if you please, and the government should not (or be able to) do anything about it.
So is calling for death to dissenters and unbelievers. Actual murder of them is morally abhorrent. That god and that prophet are no more special than the thousands of others remembered and forgotten.
Religion poisons everything.
Boo hoo
Superstitious barbarians.
Yeah what kind of magic do they think is going to be released from burning a book?
Great way to beat the Islamophobia allegations
The religion of peace strikes again?
Please don’t reopen the camps.
German spotted. Shouldn’t you be a bit more careful about inciting hatred towards religious groups?
Even the most peaceful person is going to get a little pissed if you burn something they hold sacred, mockingly, and then get ready to do it several times again. (After you’ve seen the distress it causes)
Oh no, a book was burned.
What kind of religion encourages violence over something so trivial?
All of them basically.
Examples please.
Nice. The redditors are so used to their echo chamber that they come out with such easy dunkables.
Maybe. Being a little pissed is everyone’s right. So, I agree with you.
Maybe you will agree that only criminally deranged idiots will turn to violence over the damaging of a book.
It’s not the damage to the book necessarily, but the complete lack of respect and intention to cause anger.
It would kind of be like burning a Constitution and American Flag on Independence Day in front of the Capitol or maybe Washington Monument. Or lighting a cross on fire in front of the Lincoln memorial on Juneteenth or MLK Jr. Day. Or setting up Swastikas in front of synagogues during Passover.
It’s essentially intentionally spreading hate. Now, if you burn a Torah, Qu’ran, and Bible as an anti-religion demonstration on some random day of the year, that’s a completely different thing. But doing such a demonstration on a religion’s holiest of days in front of that religion’s places of worship is a very different matter.
Meanwhile, these people routinely chant “death to America”, and I, an American, am supposed to take it in stride.
they got permission to burn the embassy as form of freedom of expression
Live pics from Sweden.
Image source: Book Burning in Berlin
Lmao. Surely this just proves we must burn all Quran’s.
Wasn’t the Quran burning a while ago?
They’re a bit slow, aren’t they?
Another one was planned and given permission for today, Thursday, July 20th. So they were egged on beforehand.
Ah my bad, must’ve missed that then lmao
I think we should not burn Qurans
I think we should not burn buildings.
I agree!
There cannot be topics forbidden to be made fun of in a free society. If we cannot make fun of Muslims and Islam in any way without causing religious riots and violence then current form Islam has no place in a free society. The difference between Islam and the other monotheistic abrahamic religions is that the older two of the three have had enough time to go through cycles of reformation and ideological modernization, making them somewhat compatible with a modern pluralist society. Islam still insists a bunch of fables from when the book was written are literally true and valid today, and not just apocryphal advice on how to be a decent person.
And before someone brings up the inevitable American evangelicals as comparison, they are equally incompatible. Luckily that scourge is largely confined to the United States and not my problem.
Topics can be forbidden while still allowing for a free society. It’s called the paradox of tolerance and is why Germany bans the free speech of Nazis. The thing about satire of Islam is that the events that get a big reaction like this are not “making fun of Muslims and Islam” but flat-out hate speech. Look at real political cartoonists like Eli Valley and Stan Kelly to see that you can joke about and even be kind of mean to people without calling them pedophiles or burning sacred books. You say that Islam hasn’t had time to become compatible with modern society. What a ridiculous statement contradicted by your own exception. The rise of American Christian fascism as well as the arch-conservative Christians in modern-day Uganda prove that time has nothing to do with how strict a religion is. This is further contradicted by Islamic society being much more progressive in the Medieval era compared to Christian society despite being younger. The fact is, you just hate Muslims.
Thank you for enlightening me to my inner workings! It is always a revelation to have an internet armchair psychologist give you a diagnosis.
For that matter, I am german myself and thus have a “passing” familiarity with the legal situation surrounding nazism. I am specifically referring to Christianity in the west, with an exception to America due to their own regression in that regard. You are of course right that certain re emerging right wing parties are sometimes tied to conservative Christianity like in Poland, but that doesn’t somehow negate the danger of allowing a new and radically violent religion to take hold and carve out space in a free society.
Also, your paradox of tolerance is not actually a paradox, people just like to parrot that to not be made to change something.
Tolerance is a social contract that says I accept you to live and be free as you are or want to be in this society, as long as you treat me with the same respect. Islam does not subscribe to this notion, there is no room for acceptance of LGBTQ people, the equal rights and opportunities of women, not even for non-Muslim beliefs (infidels) or atheists (apostates).
Which in turn means Islam is not covered by the social contract of tolerance.
You know, you never see edgelord atheists “proving a point” by burning Bibles in public to trigger Christians… I guess I don’t have to wonder why - the way it looks is the way it is.
