I think at this point you need to give concrete examples rather than descriptions because the difference is rather nebulous if we’re talking about anything realistically mainstream which you would find in a Western global city.
the entirety of it is nebulous because of the social nuances that define the differences that make the american spaces unique compared to their world wide counterparts; but here’s one example that i suspect that might help explain.
there’s a gay club named horsemarketsf in the united states and it has an analogue in western europe name fickstutenmarkt.
if you’re straight or mainstream gay; they’re the same because they have the same rules; the same mission statement; the same conditions for entry; and the american one is touted as a duplicate of the european one. if you try to attend either one as mainstream cisgendered gay, you’re likely not going to notice a difference at all either.
if you’re not mainstream (especially neurodivergent, a chub, trans, old, etc.); you will usually not be allowed to attend fickstutenmarkt, but you will be allowed to attend horsemarketsf because it is thoroughly egalitarian by nature. despite the entry rules being the same for both.
fickstutenmarkt’s denial stems from historical & cultural baggage that the european decider carries within them during vetting time for who is the “right” kind of person to let in from the “wrong” kind of person to be denied and is how all the european gay spaces operate; it’s completely subjective. (good luck if you’re romani).
the american spaces don’t care since it’s not decided on subjective grounds like the europeans; for them vetting involves proof that you can afford the costs of attending and can provide the paperwork they want. ie american capitalist standards.
this lack of historical-cultural baggage is what makes the american gay spaces unique compared to their western european (and world wide) counterparts and it has implications that go beyond the physical characteristics that i shared in this example.
take cruising as another example: it’s a hard requirement if you’re trying to patronize a gay space outside the west since it serves as a safety measure due to similar historical-cultural baggage as the europeans. if you’re on a part of the spectrum that doesn’t make eye contact or can’t read facial expressions like i do, then cruising effectively becomes a barrier as well and you will be unable to patronize that gay space. in the united states, cruising is not a safety measure of any kind, due to the lack of that same historical-cultural baggage, so it’s never a barrier.
so gay spaces are not a uniquely american trait; it’s that the american gay spaces have unique traits that make them accessible to people who don’t fit any mold and that’s one the things that i like about this country.
If I knew this was going to lead to a “I got rejected for Berghain” style reply, I wouldn’t have asked. I’m gonna reply to the substance, but god damn this is an epic post.
You’re gonna have a hard time convincing me (also queer) that American gay men are more inclusive in their sex parties compared to Euros. Sure you might make it past the door in SF vs Berlin, but that doesn’t mean you’re gonna get what you want. American horsemarket literally has a FAQ about “will I get any action if I’m not a twink or a muscle bod” (damn wonder why that’s a FAQ huh?) The answer is basically “I can’t make people fuck you”. After all America has those 6 magic words on Grindr.
I’m also autistic and there’s no real difference here. NT’s also have to fake being “cool” to get into German clubs. You can fake being NT cool for 5 minutes to get past the bouncer. Nobody’s gonna care if you can’t make eye contact when you have a hood on dude.
Lastly American horsemarket doesn’t enforce condoms compared to Germany, which is crazy.
But honestly 5 star out of left field post that explains the Rosebud of your political view.
The problem is it boils down to there’s less posts on German sniffies that say “absolutely no loads refused”.
at first i was surprised that i wasn’t rejected; but i’ve since then learned that the way i patronize these clubs virtually guarantee’s my approval and my experiences with these two clubs along with several others is indeed the rosebud of my political view.
i wield the few social privileges i i’m aware i have like cudgel every chance i get; one almost always guarantees approval into clubs like horsemarket and the other takes the form of a social masking coping technique, which i’ve learned is (somehow?!!!) charming/appealing enough to usually make friendships from these clubs.
just like at horsemarket, i used both cudgels to make these new & temporary friends from berlin who told me about some of the trends and inner-circles of their club and i was surprised by the cosa-nostra-like way that it was all conducted; i also learned from them later that if didn’t have both cudgeols, i would never be allowed to go in the future.
in the united states, i don’t need either cudgel.
i tried using the subjectivity of entrance criteria to describe this socially-driven/cosa-nostra manner that non-american spaces employ and i think it’s a sign as clear as that FAQ of why it exists; mainsteam gay men tend to lack inclusivity and horsemarketsf and fickstutenmarkt are main stream gay parties with mostly mainstream gays.
my third cudgeol affords me the ability to be happy in both mainstream and non-mainstream clubs that are horsmarket adjacent and from them i’ve made significantly longer lasting friendships.
the accessibility to these clubs is what makes american queer spaces unique compared to those of the rest of the world; including western europe. it’s unencumbered by the socially-driven historical baggage that keeps a place like berlin out of reach, but getting past the door more easily in SF is not what matters. what matters is that you know that you can open those doors without requiring anyone’s approval and that opening the first door can show you that there are multiple other doors that open into spaces that are made for & by people just like you.
if you’re an american; those subsequent doors are likewise unencumbered and i HIGHLY recommend them for their friendships as well and their temporary pleasantness. lol
The idea that queer spaces are a uniquely American trait is also horse shit.
true for ordinary/maintream gay spaces; these space are unique and only exist because of american traits.
I think at this point you need to give concrete examples rather than descriptions because the difference is rather nebulous if we’re talking about anything realistically mainstream which you would find in a Western global city.
the entirety of it is nebulous because of the social nuances that define the differences that make the american spaces unique compared to their world wide counterparts; but here’s one example that i suspect that might help explain.
there’s a gay club named horsemarketsf in the united states and it has an analogue in western europe name fickstutenmarkt.
if you’re straight or mainstream gay; they’re the same because they have the same rules; the same mission statement; the same conditions for entry; and the american one is touted as a duplicate of the european one. if you try to attend either one as mainstream cisgendered gay, you’re likely not going to notice a difference at all either.
if you’re not mainstream (especially neurodivergent, a chub, trans, old, etc.); you will usually not be allowed to attend fickstutenmarkt, but you will be allowed to attend horsemarketsf because it is thoroughly egalitarian by nature. despite the entry rules being the same for both.
fickstutenmarkt’s denial stems from historical & cultural baggage that the european decider carries within them during vetting time for who is the “right” kind of person to let in from the “wrong” kind of person to be denied and is how all the european gay spaces operate; it’s completely subjective. (good luck if you’re romani).
the american spaces don’t care since it’s not decided on subjective grounds like the europeans; for them vetting involves proof that you can afford the costs of attending and can provide the paperwork they want. ie american capitalist standards.
this lack of historical-cultural baggage is what makes the american gay spaces unique compared to their western european (and world wide) counterparts and it has implications that go beyond the physical characteristics that i shared in this example.
take cruising as another example: it’s a hard requirement if you’re trying to patronize a gay space outside the west since it serves as a safety measure due to similar historical-cultural baggage as the europeans. if you’re on a part of the spectrum that doesn’t make eye contact or can’t read facial expressions like i do, then cruising effectively becomes a barrier as well and you will be unable to patronize that gay space. in the united states, cruising is not a safety measure of any kind, due to the lack of that same historical-cultural baggage, so it’s never a barrier.
so gay spaces are not a uniquely american trait; it’s that the american gay spaces have unique traits that make them accessible to people who don’t fit any mold and that’s one the things that i like about this country.
First off
for being a true poster.
If I knew this was going to lead to a “I got rejected for Berghain” style reply, I wouldn’t have asked. I’m gonna reply to the substance, but god damn this is an epic post.
You’re gonna have a hard time convincing me (also queer) that American gay men are more inclusive in their sex parties compared to Euros. Sure you might make it past the door in SF vs Berlin, but that doesn’t mean you’re gonna get what you want. American horsemarket literally has a FAQ about “will I get any action if I’m not a twink or a muscle bod” (damn wonder why that’s a FAQ huh?) The answer is basically “I can’t make people fuck you”. After all America has those 6 magic words on Grindr.
I’m also autistic and there’s no real difference here. NT’s also have to fake being “cool” to get into German clubs. You can fake being NT cool for 5 minutes to get past the bouncer. Nobody’s gonna care if you can’t make eye contact when you have a hood on dude.
Lastly American horsemarket doesn’t enforce condoms compared to Germany, which is crazy.
But honestly 5 star out of left field post that explains the Rosebud of your political view.
The problem is it boils down to there’s less posts on German sniffies that say “absolutely no loads refused”.
i love this so i’m going to steal it. lol
at first i was surprised that i wasn’t rejected; but i’ve since then learned that the way i patronize these clubs virtually guarantee’s my approval and my experiences with these two clubs along with several others is indeed the rosebud of my political view.
i wield the few social privileges i i’m aware i have like cudgel every chance i get; one almost always guarantees approval into clubs like horsemarket and the other takes the form of a social masking coping technique, which i’ve learned is (somehow?!!!) charming/appealing enough to usually make friendships from these clubs.
just like at horsemarket, i used both cudgels to make these new & temporary friends from berlin who told me about some of the trends and inner-circles of their club and i was surprised by the cosa-nostra-like way that it was all conducted; i also learned from them later that if didn’t have both cudgeols, i would never be allowed to go in the future.
in the united states, i don’t need either cudgel.
i tried using the subjectivity of entrance criteria to describe this socially-driven/cosa-nostra manner that non-american spaces employ and i think it’s a sign as clear as that FAQ of why it exists; mainsteam gay men tend to lack inclusivity and horsemarketsf and fickstutenmarkt are main stream gay parties with mostly mainstream gays.
my third cudgeol affords me the ability to be happy in both mainstream and non-mainstream clubs that are horsmarket adjacent and from them i’ve made significantly longer lasting friendships.
the accessibility to these clubs is what makes american queer spaces unique compared to those of the rest of the world; including western europe. it’s unencumbered by the socially-driven historical baggage that keeps a place like berlin out of reach, but getting past the door more easily in SF is not what matters. what matters is that you know that you can open those doors without requiring anyone’s approval and that opening the first door can show you that there are multiple other doors that open into spaces that are made for & by people just like you.
if you’re an american; those subsequent doors are likewise unencumbered and i HIGHLY recommend them for their friendships as well and their temporary pleasantness. lol