But that’s the very issue I take. The problems around gender stereotypes, patriarchy etc. are a complex combination of factors on both sides - and the only way to untangle this is to listen to both sides. Men should absolutely scrutinize their behavior using what women can share; but so should women hear male voices to see what can be changed on their end.
We can’t expect to find a common ground under the dictate of one side. Men didn’t manage to solve the issue of women back in the pre-feminism era, because they thought they knew better. Now women repeat the same mistake, thinking they hold the keys to the solution and not bothering asking men on what they think about it.
If you go in line with the patriarchal system and keep your mouth shut about genuine issues you might have, you’ll face no shortage of attention.
The second you go against this formula, you’ll likely find yourself severely ostracised. Try talking about how cool it is to be a househusband, or how knitting is actually good, and try to find an audience. Tell people around that you pursue passion over money, and good luck building a family. Tell anyone about things in which men are genuinely disadvantaged - and then not be claimed as a whiny hypocritical bitch.
As a woman, go full tradwife and you’ll be praised. Talk about the joy of maternity and people will translate it. Go gentle, don’t contest the positions of power, and you’ll get your attention very briefly.
It’s not a male vs female thing. It’s about men and women for/against patriarchy, and while women have managed to overcome a significant share of gender stereotypes, men have not, and it’s not that feminism is there to help.
Try talking about how cool it is to be a househusband, or how knitting is actually good, and try to find an audience. Tell people around that you pursue passion over money, and good luck building a family. Tell anyone about things in which men are genuinely disadvantaged - and then not be claimed as a whiny hypocritical bitch.
That is not my experience, and I’m sorry if it’s yours. But than again you are talking about normalizing pressure from the conservative society that tries to preserve traditional gender roles. That one is not on feminism. And there are men in position of power with platforms and I would argue there are quite diverse male voices, if you inclined to look for them.
As a woman, go full tradwife and you’ll be praised. Talk about the joy of maternity and people will translate it. Go gentle, don’t contest the positions of power, and you’ll get your attention very briefly.
I’m not sure that this is the experience most women make. Seems a bit magnetosphery influenced perception.
It’s not a male vs female thing. It’s about men and women for/against patriarchy, and while women have managed to overcome a significant share of gender stereotypes, men have not, and it’s not that feminism is there to help.
I really don’t get why feminism which tries to diversify gender roles does not help men. It helped me.
I’m not saying all the issues I raise are caused by feminism, I just note it doesn’t help to solve them.
Feminism diversifies female gender roles, and what it does for men is collateral. It’s not a movement about men. Diversity in gender roles and expressions for everyone is part of wider antisexism, which counts both inputs for the greater good of both genders (and also nonbinary people).
You need to explain to me how exactly do diverse female roles work without diverse male roles? If antisexism (what ever that might be) is your cup of tee - sure. I don’t understand why are you upset about men using feminism as a framework to analyses their problems. I think you miss that besides being a movement, feminism is also a sociological lens - through which one can look at society and it might help to understand parts of our current condition.
Sorry but this has not been my experience, but even if it was, I don’t see how that’s a “man” problem. We are not here to talk about how women should change, but men. You either accept the situation and make the best of it, or you look for excuses not to engage in the subject.
It is, yet it’s not quite what this place offers. It just trades one model for the other, while squeezing men between two of them, both of which they should seemingly follow simultaneously.
But it is. Also again - no-one is stopping you from creating a non feminist male space and see where it goes. I think there was even one around on lemmy - see for your self how it ended. I really don’t understand your problem with dudes talking about mens issues from feminist perspective.
Of course there is!
But that’s the very issue I take. The problems around gender stereotypes, patriarchy etc. are a complex combination of factors on both sides - and the only way to untangle this is to listen to both sides. Men should absolutely scrutinize their behavior using what women can share; but so should women hear male voices to see what can be changed on their end.
We can’t expect to find a common ground under the dictate of one side. Men didn’t manage to solve the issue of women back in the pre-feminism era, because they thought they knew better. Now women repeat the same mistake, thinking they hold the keys to the solution and not bothering asking men on what they think about it.
Dude you want to honestly argue that male voices are not present enough in general population? Where do you live?
Male (and female) voices are different.
If you go in line with the patriarchal system and keep your mouth shut about genuine issues you might have, you’ll face no shortage of attention.
The second you go against this formula, you’ll likely find yourself severely ostracised. Try talking about how cool it is to be a househusband, or how knitting is actually good, and try to find an audience. Tell people around that you pursue passion over money, and good luck building a family. Tell anyone about things in which men are genuinely disadvantaged - and then not be claimed as a whiny hypocritical bitch.
As a woman, go full tradwife and you’ll be praised. Talk about the joy of maternity and people will translate it. Go gentle, don’t contest the positions of power, and you’ll get your attention very briefly.
It’s not a male vs female thing. It’s about men and women for/against patriarchy, and while women have managed to overcome a significant share of gender stereotypes, men have not, and it’s not that feminism is there to help.
That is not my experience, and I’m sorry if it’s yours. But than again you are talking about normalizing pressure from the conservative society that tries to preserve traditional gender roles. That one is not on feminism. And there are men in position of power with platforms and I would argue there are quite diverse male voices, if you inclined to look for them.
I’m not sure that this is the experience most women make. Seems a bit magnetosphery influenced perception.
I really don’t get why feminism which tries to diversify gender roles does not help men. It helped me.
I’m not saying all the issues I raise are caused by feminism, I just note it doesn’t help to solve them.
Feminism diversifies female gender roles, and what it does for men is collateral. It’s not a movement about men. Diversity in gender roles and expressions for everyone is part of wider antisexism, which counts both inputs for the greater good of both genders (and also nonbinary people).
You need to explain to me how exactly do diverse female roles work without diverse male roles? If antisexism (what ever that might be) is your cup of tee - sure. I don’t understand why are you upset about men using feminism as a framework to analyses their problems. I think you miss that besides being a movement, feminism is also a sociological lens - through which one can look at society and it might help to understand parts of our current condition.
Sorry but this has not been my experience, but even if it was, I don’t see how that’s a “man” problem. We are not here to talk about how women should change, but men. You either accept the situation and make the best of it, or you look for excuses not to engage in the subject.
What’s so “Men Liberating” in it, then?
This is not “Feminism for Men 101”.
Isn’t getting rid of traditional roles and being able to chose your own role liberating?
It is, yet it’s not quite what this place offers. It just trades one model for the other, while squeezing men between two of them, both of which they should seemingly follow simultaneously.
But it is. Also again - no-one is stopping you from creating a non feminist male space and see where it goes. I think there was even one around on lemmy - see for your self how it ended. I really don’t understand your problem with dudes talking about mens issues from feminist perspective.