You keep using left and liberal like they’re interchangeable when they absolutely aren’t.
In 2016 the left went for Bernie sanders, who had an economic populist platform that spoke to the grievances that came from 2008. The democrats - liberals - kneecapped him and shunned his supporters.
It’s the liberals who took minorities for granted and are now turning on them now that they’re no longer useful. It’s the liberals who thought they could just run on demographics and identity politics alone and not bother with a real platform other than “we’re not trump”. I find it pretty offensive that you lump the mythical “left” in this country with liberals. There’s very few actual leftists and whole lot of liberals who think they’re left because they want to reform capitalism with social democracy instead of overthrow it like it deserves to be.
I’d be considered a somewhat anti immigration leftist, because I work in an industry that undercuts local labor and imports cheaper J1s and H1Bs. During covid, instead of a merit raise of 10-50 cents we got a three dollar + raise because they couldn’t import foreign labor for cheap. Tight immigration used to be a somewhat left wing stance, economic protectionism. Loose immigration just benefits business owners and fucks over labor. Obviously we’re a nation of immigrants and we need immigration but we also need to clamp down hard on businesses who take advantage of cheap labor to fuck over American labor like myself. I hate that the immigration conversation focuses on “illegals” and not on businesses fucking over American labor by hiring cheaper legal and illegal labor instead.
And I think race is overplayed of an issue when it comes to immigration. A large quantity of immigrants coming in are not English speakers, most are Spanish speakers. I’m from NY originally and I’ve been gone for almost a decade living in the whitest state ever and I had to go home to take care of my mom - I heard almost entirely Spanish being spoken many places instead of English. When I grew up it was English 90% of the time and now it’s Spanish probably 40-50% of the time. That’s culturally shocking and it’s fair for English speakers to be irritated by it and feel like they’re being replaced. I have a ton of respect for people who speak more than one language but due to a brain injury I’m not capable of it despite trying. It’s crazy to see how much my hometown changed in the decade I’ve been gone. It’s unrecognizable.
Also it shouldn’t be controversial to say certain places are getting completely overwhelmed by immigrants. Of course the liberals will paint you as a rAcIsT for saying so but look at how hard they lost this election to see how tired people are of their bullshit.
We have a racist history that bleeds into the present day no doubt but not everything is because of race.
I mean both. And there is some merit to the criticism that both liberals and left can be seen as smug. Again, it’s not all but many from both groups are. Thing is, as many people have been lifted out of poverty, the traditional base of the left that is the working class have become middle class to upper class themselves. Many of those folks may still say they identify as leftist, but they became privileged and do not realise or acknowledge it. They may say that they believe in social and economic justice and mention they feel bad for the poor and homeless; but at the same time block the push for building affordable housing because “it ruins the view from their back garden” or they won’t say that it depreciates the value of their property. “Champagne socialists” and “limousine liberals” are real and rightful pejorative terms after all.
Let’s agree to disagree but I think social democracy is the best system one could go so far. I am very sympathetic to worker-run organisations but if it is so effective, why hasn’t everybody set them ubiquitously? Co-operatives exist and there is absolutely no reason to prevent people to create them (however, I am surprised to hear that many Americans never heard of co-ops and found it to be an alien idea so it is not common in the US). The main issue with worker-run businesses is that people usually elect to increase their wages so it could negatively affect the operational cost.
I very much agree with you that mass immigration affect working class wages. I have worked various jobs both blue and white collar jobs. When I was working on the factory floor, so many immigrants work excessive hours without question. They would even want to work seven days straight if they could. It raises the expectations for everyone since the management is using the outlier as the new norm, which causes resentment from other workers who are expected to follow impossible standards. But the problem with it is that due to cost of living crisis, our wages isn’t sufficient. The wages barely nudged for factory, blue collar workers since the pandemic. Because many immigrants benchmark their current earnings to that from what they were earning in their old country, they personally feel much wealther. They don’t question their current wages, and so companies offer that wage rate which do not stack up with the rising inflation. Immigrants are also less likely to unionise, which is why many businesses prefer to hire them. So, I can kinda see now why many local working class inhabitants feel resentment.
I am an immigrant myself so I can’t complain and blame other immigrants; but I grew up in the West so I am Westernised. I am class conscious fortunately due to my education and having grown up in the West where the history of putting down the working class is taught. But many immigrants have different experiences and education so they are less class conscious. What many immigrants only have known in their lives is struggle and making ends meet. They have little time to think above the basic security needs if we look at Maslow’s hierarchy of needs (and also humans inherently crave to look for approval from others through work).
The main cause I believe is the mismanagement of globalisation. The current international order is actually an anarchy but only very few realise this. Social democracy is accused of still enabling exploitation of workers in developing countries. But it is as if wealthy social democratic countries have jurisdictions to tell other governments to improve the working conditions of their own citizens and the environment. The minimum wage in richer countries is considered upper class salary in developing countries. Thus, many immigrants come in droves to developed countries which in turn drive down wages for the working class in those countries. The perception is skewed because of global wealth disparity, which then manifests materially resulting in pitting the working class among each other, whether one is white, black, Asian, Indonesian, Irish etc. Needless to say, there is no global minimum wage to standardise for everyone. And for that to happen, there has to be a global authority to set the proper working conditions and equalise the playing field for everyone. I’m actually an advocate for a global government for this reason and among many others.
Nation states have their own different rules which does not correspond with one another. This creates what is essentially a fiefdom of sorts with citizens of each countries are being manipulated by their own elites to enrich themselves at the expense of the masses. In spite of rhetoric we hear from elites, international laws are toothless because they do not have legal power and authority. National laws take more precedence. That’s why wars, climate change and exploitation still happens because of this. Countries, especially bigger ones, could act with impunity. This is a fiefdom with each nations having their own oligarchs ruling and making poor people fight for each other.
The real root cause of migrant and local tension is because the current anarchic system. There is no actual order internationally contrary to the championjng of the term “international order”. Wars and climate change displace people because of lack of legal punishment against warmongerers and polluters. I understand you might say about changing culture and in relation to my proposal of a world government, but I have written an essay than I intended so that is another discussion for another day.
I mean both. And there is some merit to the criticism that both liberals and left can be seen as smug. Again, it’s not all but many from both groups are. Thing is, as many people have been lifted out of poverty, the traditional base of the left that is the working class have become middle class to upper class themselves. Many of those folks may still say they identify as leftist, but they became privileged and do not realise or acknowledge it. They may say that they believe in social and economic justice and mention they feel bad for the poor and homeless; but at the same time block the push for building affordable housing because “it ruins the view from their back garden” or they won’t say that it depreciates the value of their property. “Champagne socialists” and “limousine liberals” are real and rightful pejorative terms after all.
You’re still wrong. That’s not the left, those are socially progressive liberals. The left are not limousine liberals who are concerned about their precious property values. It’s extremely frustrating that you continue to repeat this lie, using liberal and left interchangeably. Liberalism is a right wing ideology and mostly incompatible with the left. of course you think social democracy is the greatest thing ever, it’s a right wing idea (liberalism, but with more reform!) that’s dressed up looking left. It doesn’t threaten capitalism, it barely even reforms it. The hierarchy of power - the bourgeois and petit bourgeois- remain in place but the serfs get a couple more crumbs of bread thrown to them. Oh and every single social democracy that Europeans love to be smug about still rely on colonialism and exploitation of the global south and in norways case fossil fuels. Because social democracy doesn’t change anything, it’s just window dressing to give just enough crumbs to the serfs that they don’t demand more.
This whole little bit reminds me of how liberals and dumb people on the left (mostly progressives and social democrats who aren’t really left but get lumped in anyways because there is no left in America) who’ve been utterly brainwashed into thinking obamacare/aca is the best thing since sliced bread. It’s again, a right wing idea, created by the right wing heritage foundation for Republican mitt Romney when he was governor of Massachusetts. Obama stole it from him, initially added a single payer option, democrat joe Lieberman, owned by the insurance industry single-handedly blocked it, and now we’re left with an insurance industry handout that doesn’t provide healthcare (see deny delay despose for an example of what they do) and yet everyone to the left of the tea party thinks it’s practically universal healthcare that needs to be protected at all costs. It’s fucking delusional. The left wing ideology would be to nationalize the healthcare industry, not this fucking bureaucratic bullshit that creates useless “jobs” that exist nowhere else in the world while denying care.
But many immigrants have different experiences and education so they are less class conscious. What many immigrants only have known in their lives is struggle and making ends meet.
This is an assumption that’s completely incorrect. The tech industry is known for importing all their workers from India, and from the higher castes. These people aren’t poor, but they’ll work for less in America, and on top of that they bring caste bias with them and they are ripe for becoming fascists if they aren’t already (see modi’s India). In my field the legal immigrants are rich college kids from South America on summer holiday doing a “cultural exchange”. They don’t realize they’re undercutting local labor and they’re not the problem, american businesses are the problem.
The main cause I believe is the mismanagement of globalisation. The current international order is actually an anarchy but only very few realise this.
I wish I read this part of your comment first and I would of not even bothered with writing the rest since you have no clue what you’re talking about. This is NOT anarchy. That’s not what fucking anarchy means. I hate how liberals completely fucked up the definition of words themselves to absolutely confuse everyone to the liberal elites benefit. Anarchy in its purest definition is the absence of hierarchy. Our globalist world is the complete opposite of that. There’s a hierarchy, and you and I are somewhere near the middle to the bottom. The globalist elite are at the top. Money and power rule the world, money is just an abstraction of power. There’s very clear rules and order, I don’t know how you get “anarchy” LOL out of that.
And you want a global government? LOL GLOBALIST LIBERAL.
And you blame everything currently going on on “anarchy”? LOL.
International laws are only applied on leaders from non western countries. The UN is a fucking joke. When they arrest George w bush for his war crimes I’ll take them seriously.
You keep using left and liberal like they’re interchangeable when they absolutely aren’t.
In 2016 the left went for Bernie sanders, who had an economic populist platform that spoke to the grievances that came from 2008. The democrats - liberals - kneecapped him and shunned his supporters.
It’s the liberals who took minorities for granted and are now turning on them now that they’re no longer useful. It’s the liberals who thought they could just run on demographics and identity politics alone and not bother with a real platform other than “we’re not trump”. I find it pretty offensive that you lump the mythical “left” in this country with liberals. There’s very few actual leftists and whole lot of liberals who think they’re left because they want to reform capitalism with social democracy instead of overthrow it like it deserves to be.
I’d be considered a somewhat anti immigration leftist, because I work in an industry that undercuts local labor and imports cheaper J1s and H1Bs. During covid, instead of a merit raise of 10-50 cents we got a three dollar + raise because they couldn’t import foreign labor for cheap. Tight immigration used to be a somewhat left wing stance, economic protectionism. Loose immigration just benefits business owners and fucks over labor. Obviously we’re a nation of immigrants and we need immigration but we also need to clamp down hard on businesses who take advantage of cheap labor to fuck over American labor like myself. I hate that the immigration conversation focuses on “illegals” and not on businesses fucking over American labor by hiring cheaper legal and illegal labor instead.
And I think race is overplayed of an issue when it comes to immigration. A large quantity of immigrants coming in are not English speakers, most are Spanish speakers. I’m from NY originally and I’ve been gone for almost a decade living in the whitest state ever and I had to go home to take care of my mom - I heard almost entirely Spanish being spoken many places instead of English. When I grew up it was English 90% of the time and now it’s Spanish probably 40-50% of the time. That’s culturally shocking and it’s fair for English speakers to be irritated by it and feel like they’re being replaced. I have a ton of respect for people who speak more than one language but due to a brain injury I’m not capable of it despite trying. It’s crazy to see how much my hometown changed in the decade I’ve been gone. It’s unrecognizable.
Also it shouldn’t be controversial to say certain places are getting completely overwhelmed by immigrants. Of course the liberals will paint you as a rAcIsT for saying so but look at how hard they lost this election to see how tired people are of their bullshit.
We have a racist history that bleeds into the present day no doubt but not everything is because of race.
I mean both. And there is some merit to the criticism that both liberals and left can be seen as smug. Again, it’s not all but many from both groups are. Thing is, as many people have been lifted out of poverty, the traditional base of the left that is the working class have become middle class to upper class themselves. Many of those folks may still say they identify as leftist, but they became privileged and do not realise or acknowledge it. They may say that they believe in social and economic justice and mention they feel bad for the poor and homeless; but at the same time block the push for building affordable housing because “it ruins the view from their back garden” or they won’t say that it depreciates the value of their property. “Champagne socialists” and “limousine liberals” are real and rightful pejorative terms after all.
Let’s agree to disagree but I think social democracy is the best system one could go so far. I am very sympathetic to worker-run organisations but if it is so effective, why hasn’t everybody set them ubiquitously? Co-operatives exist and there is absolutely no reason to prevent people to create them (however, I am surprised to hear that many Americans never heard of co-ops and found it to be an alien idea so it is not common in the US). The main issue with worker-run businesses is that people usually elect to increase their wages so it could negatively affect the operational cost.
I very much agree with you that mass immigration affect working class wages. I have worked various jobs both blue and white collar jobs. When I was working on the factory floor, so many immigrants work excessive hours without question. They would even want to work seven days straight if they could. It raises the expectations for everyone since the management is using the outlier as the new norm, which causes resentment from other workers who are expected to follow impossible standards. But the problem with it is that due to cost of living crisis, our wages isn’t sufficient. The wages barely nudged for factory, blue collar workers since the pandemic. Because many immigrants benchmark their current earnings to that from what they were earning in their old country, they personally feel much wealther. They don’t question their current wages, and so companies offer that wage rate which do not stack up with the rising inflation. Immigrants are also less likely to unionise, which is why many businesses prefer to hire them. So, I can kinda see now why many local working class inhabitants feel resentment.
I am an immigrant myself so I can’t complain and blame other immigrants; but I grew up in the West so I am Westernised. I am class conscious fortunately due to my education and having grown up in the West where the history of putting down the working class is taught. But many immigrants have different experiences and education so they are less class conscious. What many immigrants only have known in their lives is struggle and making ends meet. They have little time to think above the basic security needs if we look at Maslow’s hierarchy of needs (and also humans inherently crave to look for approval from others through work).
The main cause I believe is the mismanagement of globalisation. The current international order is actually an anarchy but only very few realise this. Social democracy is accused of still enabling exploitation of workers in developing countries. But it is as if wealthy social democratic countries have jurisdictions to tell other governments to improve the working conditions of their own citizens and the environment. The minimum wage in richer countries is considered upper class salary in developing countries. Thus, many immigrants come in droves to developed countries which in turn drive down wages for the working class in those countries. The perception is skewed because of global wealth disparity, which then manifests materially resulting in pitting the working class among each other, whether one is white, black, Asian, Indonesian, Irish etc. Needless to say, there is no global minimum wage to standardise for everyone. And for that to happen, there has to be a global authority to set the proper working conditions and equalise the playing field for everyone. I’m actually an advocate for a global government for this reason and among many others.
Nation states have their own different rules which does not correspond with one another. This creates what is essentially a fiefdom of sorts with citizens of each countries are being manipulated by their own elites to enrich themselves at the expense of the masses. In spite of rhetoric we hear from elites, international laws are toothless because they do not have legal power and authority. National laws take more precedence. That’s why wars, climate change and exploitation still happens because of this. Countries, especially bigger ones, could act with impunity. This is a fiefdom with each nations having their own oligarchs ruling and making poor people fight for each other.
The real root cause of migrant and local tension is because the current anarchic system. There is no actual order internationally contrary to the championjng of the term “international order”. Wars and climate change displace people because of lack of legal punishment against warmongerers and polluters. I understand you might say about changing culture and in relation to my proposal of a world government, but I have written an essay than I intended so that is another discussion for another day.
You’re still wrong. That’s not the left, those are socially progressive liberals. The left are not limousine liberals who are concerned about their precious property values. It’s extremely frustrating that you continue to repeat this lie, using liberal and left interchangeably. Liberalism is a right wing ideology and mostly incompatible with the left. of course you think social democracy is the greatest thing ever, it’s a right wing idea (liberalism, but with more reform!) that’s dressed up looking left. It doesn’t threaten capitalism, it barely even reforms it. The hierarchy of power - the bourgeois and petit bourgeois- remain in place but the serfs get a couple more crumbs of bread thrown to them. Oh and every single social democracy that Europeans love to be smug about still rely on colonialism and exploitation of the global south and in norways case fossil fuels. Because social democracy doesn’t change anything, it’s just window dressing to give just enough crumbs to the serfs that they don’t demand more.
This whole little bit reminds me of how liberals and dumb people on the left (mostly progressives and social democrats who aren’t really left but get lumped in anyways because there is no left in America) who’ve been utterly brainwashed into thinking obamacare/aca is the best thing since sliced bread. It’s again, a right wing idea, created by the right wing heritage foundation for Republican mitt Romney when he was governor of Massachusetts. Obama stole it from him, initially added a single payer option, democrat joe Lieberman, owned by the insurance industry single-handedly blocked it, and now we’re left with an insurance industry handout that doesn’t provide healthcare (see deny delay despose for an example of what they do) and yet everyone to the left of the tea party thinks it’s practically universal healthcare that needs to be protected at all costs. It’s fucking delusional. The left wing ideology would be to nationalize the healthcare industry, not this fucking bureaucratic bullshit that creates useless “jobs” that exist nowhere else in the world while denying care.
This is an assumption that’s completely incorrect. The tech industry is known for importing all their workers from India, and from the higher castes. These people aren’t poor, but they’ll work for less in America, and on top of that they bring caste bias with them and they are ripe for becoming fascists if they aren’t already (see modi’s India). In my field the legal immigrants are rich college kids from South America on summer holiday doing a “cultural exchange”. They don’t realize they’re undercutting local labor and they’re not the problem, american businesses are the problem.
I wish I read this part of your comment first and I would of not even bothered with writing the rest since you have no clue what you’re talking about. This is NOT anarchy. That’s not what fucking anarchy means. I hate how liberals completely fucked up the definition of words themselves to absolutely confuse everyone to the liberal elites benefit. Anarchy in its purest definition is the absence of hierarchy. Our globalist world is the complete opposite of that. There’s a hierarchy, and you and I are somewhere near the middle to the bottom. The globalist elite are at the top. Money and power rule the world, money is just an abstraction of power. There’s very clear rules and order, I don’t know how you get “anarchy” LOL out of that.
And you want a global government? LOL GLOBALIST LIBERAL.
And you blame everything currently going on on “anarchy”? LOL.
International laws are only applied on leaders from non western countries. The UN is a fucking joke. When they arrest George w bush for his war crimes I’ll take them seriously.