Yes, but when a person can’t defend himself because he was killed, it’s not the killer who gets the benefit of the doubt. Israel knows he was hamas? How about they show us the evidence that was enough to kill him and everyone around him.
What kind of evidence would actually be convincing? I’ve seen photos, call transcripts and surveillance footage released in the past as justifications for various things. All are dismissed as fake or exaggerated. Or, in other cases apparently just ignored.
That’s the problem in a conflict like this as far away as it is. The truth died long ago. Whether one wants to see Hamas as the real psychopaths or Israel as the real psychopaths, any and all evidence presented so far by both sides can be twisted to suit whichever worldview the reader wants to have.
I boil it down to this, Israel has more than enough reasons to be lying and exaggerating: there are extremist factions in Israel who ideologically want to possess the land and they’ll commit genocide to achieve it. Israel had military hegemony in the area, and especially with American backing, and so can count on being able to kill and squeeze Palestinian civilians in plain view until their goals are achieved. I get it.
But also, Hamas had more than enough reasons to also be lying. They are religious extremists who want to kill all Jews at any cost routinely hide among civilians and fire weapons from civilian areas. The West lost its collective mind over terror attacks by several dozen Islamic extremists. Israel has ~30,000 members of Hamas’s genocidal terror brigades sitting on their doorstep. It’s a different scale of threat than what the West has ever dealt with.
No they are not. This is gaslight at best and out right zionest propaganda at worse. Nothing they said has any real world meaning and is used to muddy the line between “acceptable collateral damage” and outright genicide. Dude is an outright zionest and will be seen as such in every historical depiction of current times as a pro genicide individual.
There are genocidal religious fanatics on both sides. Israel just has the capacity to carry it out.
I really don’t get this whole “Israel is evil so we can’t say anything bad about Hamas” schtick that’s going around.
Israel are killing civilians on a gross scale and must stop. But if anyone thinks Hamas aren’t ideologically committed to killing as many Jews as possible no matter where they find them, then they have they head in the sand.
Why do people not seem to be able to cope with the fact that just because Israel are doing evil it doesn’t make Hamas the good guys??
No one is saying Hamas are the good guys, but one said it’s definitely using their existence as an excuse to kill millions. Kinda like the Nazie’s did to Jewish freedom fighters in Poland. What’s the difference? Were Jewish partisan Fighters fighting in Germany and Poland terrorists? Were Native Americans who raided settlements on their ancestral lands terrorists? How about Nat Turner? Queen Boudica? Violence is abhorrent no matter what form it takes but the one’s capable of doing the most violence and do so should always be seen as the evil. You can’t expect millions of people to simply die without a portion of them also choosing violence. It’s all disgusting. But you are missing the forest from the trees. There’s no reason for Isreal to be killing other than their own personal gains. The first thing they need to do to end the cycle is to stop themselves or to be stopped. The elimination of Hamas won’t stop the genicide. Just as Running Bull, Nat Turner, and yes even Hamas failed to do.
I would consider industrialised total war to be using terrorism as a weapon, yes. Whether that’s the British firebombing civilian areas of Germany or the Germans indiscriminately dropping rockets on London. Both actions are designed to terrorise the populace. So, ‘terrorism’. I would judge the rest of your examples by that criteria.
Whether or not I think various causes in history were just or not is a separate consideration. So in some cases I would support ‘terrorism’, yes. Though I would struggle to find an actual clear cut example where I think that’s the moral thing to do.
The cycle of violence between Jews and Palestinian Arabs has existed before the state of Israel even existed. Since each side has been continually justifying their actions based on what the other did it is very difficult to point to any moment in living memory where either exist “in a vacuum”. They have progressively created each other.
I realise you don’t agree with this. But I’m not saying it to be “pro Israel”. Quite the contrary.
Israel has the upper hand and should stop its terrorism against gaza civilians. But I think you, and others here should realise that even if Israel were to give Hamas all their demands it’s not like Islamic terrorism against Jews would stop. The ideology pre-dates Israel and even Zionism in general…
Yes, but when a person can’t defend himself because he was killed, it’s not the killer who gets the benefit of the doubt. Israel knows he was hamas? How about they show us the evidence that was enough to kill him and everyone around him.
What kind of evidence would actually be convincing? I’ve seen photos, call transcripts and surveillance footage released in the past as justifications for various things. All are dismissed as fake or exaggerated. Or, in other cases apparently just ignored.
for example: https://www.nytimes.com/live/2023/12/07/world/israel-hamas-war-gaza-news#israel-claims-about-al-mawasi-add-to-concerns-that-nowhere-in-gaza-is-safe-for-civilians
That’s the problem in a conflict like this as far away as it is. The truth died long ago. Whether one wants to see Hamas as the real psychopaths or Israel as the real psychopaths, any and all evidence presented so far by both sides can be twisted to suit whichever worldview the reader wants to have.
I boil it down to this, Israel has more than enough reasons to be lying and exaggerating: there are extremist factions in Israel who ideologically want to possess the land and they’ll commit genocide to achieve it. Israel had military hegemony in the area, and especially with American backing, and so can count on being able to kill and squeeze Palestinian civilians in plain view until their goals are achieved. I get it.
But also, Hamas had more than enough reasons to also be lying. They are religious extremists who want to kill all Jews at any cost routinely hide among civilians and fire weapons from civilian areas. The West lost its collective mind over terror attacks by several dozen Islamic extremists. Israel has ~30,000 members of Hamas’s genocidal terror brigades sitting on their doorstep. It’s a different scale of threat than what the West has ever dealt with.
You’re totally missing who the genocidal religious fanatics actually are.
No they are not. This is gaslight at best and out right zionest propaganda at worse. Nothing they said has any real world meaning and is used to muddy the line between “acceptable collateral damage” and outright genicide. Dude is an outright zionest and will be seen as such in every historical depiction of current times as a pro genicide individual.
There are genocidal religious fanatics on both sides. Israel just has the capacity to carry it out.
I really don’t get this whole “Israel is evil so we can’t say anything bad about Hamas” schtick that’s going around.
Israel are killing civilians on a gross scale and must stop. But if anyone thinks Hamas aren’t ideologically committed to killing as many Jews as possible no matter where they find them, then they have they head in the sand.
Why do people not seem to be able to cope with the fact that just because Israel are doing evil it doesn’t make Hamas the good guys??
No one is saying Hamas are the good guys, but one said it’s definitely using their existence as an excuse to kill millions. Kinda like the Nazie’s did to Jewish freedom fighters in Poland. What’s the difference? Were Jewish partisan Fighters fighting in Germany and Poland terrorists? Were Native Americans who raided settlements on their ancestral lands terrorists? How about Nat Turner? Queen Boudica? Violence is abhorrent no matter what form it takes but the one’s capable of doing the most violence and do so should always be seen as the evil. You can’t expect millions of people to simply die without a portion of them also choosing violence. It’s all disgusting. But you are missing the forest from the trees. There’s no reason for Isreal to be killing other than their own personal gains. The first thing they need to do to end the cycle is to stop themselves or to be stopped. The elimination of Hamas won’t stop the genicide. Just as Running Bull, Nat Turner, and yes even Hamas failed to do.
Hamas wasn’t created in a vacuum. Grow up dude.
I would consider industrialised total war to be using terrorism as a weapon, yes. Whether that’s the British firebombing civilian areas of Germany or the Germans indiscriminately dropping rockets on London. Both actions are designed to terrorise the populace. So, ‘terrorism’. I would judge the rest of your examples by that criteria.
Whether or not I think various causes in history were just or not is a separate consideration. So in some cases I would support ‘terrorism’, yes. Though I would struggle to find an actual clear cut example where I think that’s the moral thing to do.
The cycle of violence between Jews and Palestinian Arabs has existed before the state of Israel even existed. Since each side has been continually justifying their actions based on what the other did it is very difficult to point to any moment in living memory where either exist “in a vacuum”. They have progressively created each other.
I realise you don’t agree with this. But I’m not saying it to be “pro Israel”. Quite the contrary.
Israel has the upper hand and should stop its terrorism against gaza civilians. But I think you, and others here should realise that even if Israel were to give Hamas all their demands it’s not like Islamic terrorism against Jews would stop. The ideology pre-dates Israel and even Zionism in general…
Oh you’re just a zionest and pro genicide.
That is as unreasonable as me saying you’re pro-Hamas.