Hey everyone, I’ve removed bans for everyone that did not request one in the previous admin thread. (I think. If you got banned and I didn’t restore your account yet, let me know and I’ll fix it.) Don’t worry! We’re not gonna just ban people for no reason.
In case anyone hasn’t seen it yet, Alaskaball confirmed that Sangria was their admin alt. They were messing around with their admin tools on their own account and figured it would be seen as a funny bit, but without being informed of the bit many of the mods and admins were just as shocked, confused, and appalled as you were. I’ve talked to the other admins and mods, and we’re all gonna take it easy on bits for a bit. (Pun intended. This is the last one, I promise.)
If you’re afraid that there’s been an infiltration of transphobic, egomaniacal wrecker mods who hate the users, I want to assure you that’s absolutely not the case. The overwhelming majority of mods and admins on this site are trans. Our admins are all trusted, long-time users in good standing. We regularly browse, comment, and post on our main accounts. You post and chat with us daily as comrades, and we value all of you. You may not recognize the usernames on our admin accounts because we regularly swap the alts used for admin privileges. This is why you’ll see really old or unused alt accounts as well as really new accounts on the admin team.
I’ve seen a lot of speculation down below, some entertaining, some upsetting. We absolutely do not accept transphobia or any form of bigotry on this site. Some of the statements provided by mods and admins have been seen as transphobic and bioessentialist. I want to offer some transparency, but also clarify that I can’t get much more specific on this for personal security reasons.
During the earlier discussions on how we felt things could be improved with these communities, multiple trans mods and admins described their reasoning in favour of the change by expressing with a variety of wording that it’s the [he/him] demographic in particular that has been the source of toxic and troubling behavior in the tanks. That the he/hims haven’t been beating the accusations, so to speak. With that group being largely cishet white guys on this site, these two terms were assumed to roughly correlate. We weren’t making prepared statements for release, the comments that got posted here were paraphrased and combined from more casual comments made by trans people, in the mod chat to mostly other trans people about some of the chauvinistic and ironically bigoted posting habits that they saw as alienating and unhealthy for the site, and what we could do to improve the situation. We genuinely didn’t foresee the potential for a miscommunication of those statements as being bioessentialist, and want to extend our sincerest apologies for the misunderstanding.
Edit: Please feel welcome to post in c/gossip as you would have posted in the_dunk_tank, and in c/counterpropaganda as you would have posted in the_dredge_tank.
The reason most of us hate struggle sessions, the reason so many of us lay low until these things die down, is that struggle sessions are too fast and chaotic to be dialogue. Everyone gets too heated and pressed and defensive to actually listen or reach an understanding, so it turns into people talking past each other, sometimes building up personal resentments that last long after the struggle session ends and have little to do with the original disagreement. If you wade into it, you risk making enemies, and you don’t chance making friends.
I think we need some site meta-culture or protocols for how to handle large conflicts in a healthier way in the future, regardless of the content of the conflict.
I gotta say as a participant in a lot of these sessions, and I know this sounds funny or stereotypical, but…
Most strugglesessions I’ve experienced happens because of the following
My understanding is that struggle sessions are rarely one-sided, they’re a feedback loop of escalation, hurt, and defensiveness in which all sides contribute. In this session, for example, there were comments accusing the mods of being a cabal of power-seeking transphobes. That’s an escalation that shuts down discussion rather than fosters it.
I make the analogy that, just as revolutions tend to be chaotic and bloody regardless of their ideological content—libs conveniently forget how mess the French revolution was—struggle sessions have their own realities independent of the specific topic and specific people involved. The same unstable feedback loops arise in any struggle session.
My takeaway is that, in general, looking past this specific struggle session, we all have to work together to foster healthier discussion dynamics here.
I completely agree, I tried to illustrate that loop.
No there weren’t, that’s a reductive representation of the position the “dunking is not inherently a cishet white man thing” people held.
No one, except for the mods have talked about “shadowy cabals running the whole thing”. I’ve talked about there being a clique of mods whipping up a frenzy in the private modchat, not a shadowy cabal of transphobes. I - and others - have talked about there being a separate culture in the modchat, between some of the mods in the modteam. Not some deepstate of evil wreckers trying their best to misgender users from the shadows.
I and others have talked about how the modresponse was bioessentialist and how the mods subsequently misgendered people, though not on purpose, but by way of their rhetoric. Which did happen. Nobody called them transphobic, except for the misunderstanding when alaskaball banned themselves and people - who at this point were pissed at being banned “as a bit” (really for disagreeing with TC69) and infantilized - interpreted “fella” as being misgendering, which I don’t see, but I wasn’t there.
I agree in part, but I disagree with the “both sides are equally to blame” framing I interpret from your text. Following your analogy: The french revolution could have been avoided if the royalists weren’t dumbasses who ignored and suppressed their subjects until it got to be too much. This analogy is obviously flawed since I’ve got loads of bread and I don’t have to post here. I can just go elsewhere or disappear. Also I can’t be killed thru the screen, yet.
My takeaway is that we have to look at what happened and finally confront the current structure of moderation of hexbear is one that is inherently flawed.
Sorry if I got it wrong. I don’t have a very good understanding of what happened.
That said, I’m not here to re-litigate the details of what happened. I probably shouldn’t have tried to find a real example.
My point is that the thread was not a functional discussion. People were escalating and not listening.
My analogy is that certain situations have their own emergent properties, not that the causes of a revolution can be mapped to the causes of a struggle session. I’m talking about the chaos itself.
Struggle sessions and revolutions are both examples of situations that gain a life of their own. Emergent effects dominate over the desires of the participants. No one’s in control of the situation.
That might well be, but I hope we can talk about it slowly and patiently from here on out.
Don’t apologise for not being online enough. Honestly sorry for getting it “right”.
Definitely agree
Makes way more sense for me now, thank you for the clarifyer.
Personally I feel like things would work out if we just got even meaner and more hostile from hereon out (tone: joking)
Really though, I genuinely hope so too. I am really happy with how it has been handled since lyudmila started posting.
:cognitohazard: <- Click for knowledge that damages your mind as if it was eldritch, but you don’t get any cool powers from it
Yeah, me too, it’s a relief to see people decompress and process things now that the action is over. I just wish we could have moved at this pace from the start.
I’ve gotten so much out of this site over the years, I hope we can keep things going here for many years to come.
We might benefit from a new thread mode for conflicts. “Slow mode” or “struggle session mode” or “effortposts only mode.”
This is a great idea, seconding slow mode for threads when a struggle is kicking off
Someone should make a feature request on lemmy’s github
Can we get a “piggy slop” mode too for all of us struggle lovers?
(tone: joking. I did not enjoythe arguments. I thought I would just write one post giving my thoughts and then it all went to shit)
Yeah we should probably have a “mark as struggle session” mod tool.
I don’t have any idea how hard it would be to implement but something like
This
Once a post has been deemed a Struggle Session (maybe a number of mods/admin need to sign off) it should get set to not be publicly-federated so we don’t have non-community interaction, wreckers or alts. (maybe carving out a space for federated users that had commented before the struggle session was declared)
It should also be rate limited to 1 top level comment per user, and maybe a certain number of replies (maybe depending on how long the struggle session is in play.) no limits on editing your comments. So you can make your statement on the issue and challenge a certain number of other people’s views but do so tactically.
It wouldn’t have a thousand people stating the same things over and over and litigating the same points with 10 other users. and would be much easier to figure out what was going on and what the arguments on each side were.
Honestly great idea
My suggestions all sound really obvious, but they’re obvious because we’ve all heard them before, because they actually work:
I fully agree