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- cross-posted to:
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“He’s doing a good job,” Trump saidabout the Israeli leader. “Biden is trying to hold him back, just so you understand, Biden is more superior to the VP. He’s trying to hold him back, and he probably should be doing the opposite, actually. I’m glad that Netanyahu decided to do what he had to do, but it’s moving along pretty good.”
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If you are an American voter and you sit this one out or vote 3rd party and Trump gets in you are directly supporting escalation and taking whatever little restraint away that Netanyahu is feeling from the USA.
Instead of calls for restraint you will have cheerleading from the sidelines.
I honestly think if you can’t be bothered to vote you need to shut the fuck up, not complain and keep your political opinions to yourself. If you’re not even gonna vote, shut the fuck up. I don’t wanna hear it.
Pretty unfortunate for you that there’s free speech then huh? Not letting you spew your dnc propaganda undisturbed
The comment you replied to is also an example of free speech. I see it made you a little butt-hurt that this guy isn’t interested in what you have to say. But that’s the nature of free speech, you can say what you want, but others a free to think you’re a waste of time.
Perhaps if someone isn’t interested in what you have to say, you shouldn’t bother replying to them.
Lol Republicans don’t like free speech. So don’t pretend like you do.
I wouldn’t know since I am not a republican. I’m just absolutely not ok with the Palestinian genocide, but you care so little that you only seen republicans, regardless if the critique comes from the right or from the left. You’d wish you could make me look like a republican.
If you’re gonna help Republicans by staying home or voting third party or some shit you may as well slap on the red hat
I know you’d wish that, but unfortunately genocide is too much for me and the least evil argument doesn’t hold up anymore. There are red lines and dnc has absolutely crossed them. I’m not expecting you to understand, you clearly don’t care enough about the genocide.
Cool, vote for Stein then. That way you can get three genocides (Gaza, Ukraine, and LGBTQ at home) instead of just one.
But for people that actually oppose genocide, Harris is the only vote that will actually accomplish anything.
So I see you’re concerned about the mathematical flaws of First past the post voting and the spoiler effect that comes along with it.
Did you know that alternative electoral systems exist? Ones where there isn’t a spoiler effect even. I feel like most democrats, like yourself, understand these faults quite well.
So why are you mad about people who want to vote outside the two party system? Shouldn’t your anger be better directed at the two legacy poltical parties that protect this flawed voting system?
We all understand that republicans like First Past The Post voting. They are moving to protect FPTP voting in states they control. However, democrats say they support democracy. So can you tell me why they continue to use FPTP voting in the majority of states they control?
It’s not like this is a new issue. Its not like the democratic party just found out about the spoiler effect that comes with First Past The Post voting. Democrats have been quick to point out the flaws of our voting system longer then I’ve been alive.
Again, if the democrats are so informed of the flaws of the voting system, why does it persist in the vast majority of blue states? Who is preventing this reform? It’s not the republicans… they aren’t in power in these states. In a two party system, that would leave only one political party responsible for this spoiler effect.
The democrats.
They have sat on their hands for countless decades, understanding the problem yet doing nothing to resolve the issue.
So you see, you should be mad at the democratic party for putting their party over the needs of the people. Not the people who want to vote a certain way.
It’s unreasonable to blame those unrepresented in government for what is. This is what we voted for… again… and again… and again. Over and over. This is the result.
Cool. Do you have a way to implement RCV nationwide in the next two weeks? Because otherwise there are exactly two people with any chance of winning this election.
irrelevant - everyone knows and agrees. that doesn’t change that this election you have exactly 1 choice
politics is shit. until you have other options, you have to live in the world you live in and not a fantasy
C’mon enlightened lefties! Come on and tell me how you won’t be voting for genocide and we should follow so the Democrats figure out through losing the election that they should court lefties. Nevermind we get 4 years of, “he’s doing a good job” as long as Democrats learn to denounce genocide.
C’mon you fucking cowards, get in here and sell me on how Trump winning helps solve your single issue voting on genocide.
I’m voting for Harris. She shouldn’t be supporting genocide and neither should you.
Absolutely no disagreement there. I don’t condone genocide, and think we should do something about it but I’m not foolish enough to think not voting for the lesser of two evils accomplishes this. We are in agreement.
Nor am I. Unfortunately, there are plenty of people on lemmy who are so pro-genocide that they cannot abide any criticism of it, no matter how mild. These people immediately assume that anyone who has any misgivings at all about Democrats supporting Netanyahu’s genocide must be a trump supporter.
I’m looking forward to October 21, when early voting opens in Texas, so I can vote for Harris. That doesn’t mean I must remain silent about genocide.
No one here is pro-genocide. It’s all in your head as a defense mechanism to use against people that disagree with you.
Hey bud, genocide denial isn’t genocide support. And while I truly believe genocide is happening, (mods- take note that I said this as I’m certain they’re reporting me for genocide denial)…
there will always be other people out there who try and define things by their own terms. This doesn’t make them right- but we all know your false equivalence has no filter, or ability to discern the difference between the two.
If someone says “I don’t have cancer” when they have cancer, that doesn’t make them pro cancer. It’s just makes them in denial.
In short- saying that it is’t genocide isn’t saying they would support it if it were. And it’s well known that you constantly accuse everyone that calls you out as a genocide supporter. So since we’re handing our advice….
Maybe don’t do that.
Hey bud, genocide denial isn’t genocide support.
It absolutely is.
This is ignorant as fuck. First of all, there is no more reliable group of voters in the country than progressives. Not even MAGA members have shown up at polls as reliably for Republicans as the left has for Democrats. Still, the Democratic establishment whines about leftists staying home to excuse their pathetic losses, and morons eat it up.
Also, even if there were any kind of truth to this narrative, trying to win an election by shaming voters is dumb as fuck. No voter who is as fickle as you think the left is, is going to decide to show up because you shouted insults at them. This isn’t a strategy to win elections, it’s a strategy to excuse losing them.
It’s not “left” voters saying they will stay home, not in significant numbers. It’s Muslim voters or, more precisely, it’s voters who know the names of the people being systematically slaughtered with US weapons. While I agree that voting Democrat is the best bad option for Palestinians, I can’t get behind shaming someone for not voting to elect someone unrepentantly responsible for blowing up their loved ones. If they can’t stomach voting for Harris, I don’t blame them.
There are a bunch of “leftists” on lemmy arguing till the cows come home that leftists mustn’t vote for the Democrats on the grounds that Kamala Harris is personally responsible for genocide in Gaza, who are able to both-sides any and every criticism of the Republicans. They advocate not voting and voting third parties, anything, really, as long as anyone with a conscience over Gaza excludes themselves from affecting whether Kamala Harris or Donald Trump becomes president. They argue that losing to the right wingers will push them left, but I think it’ll drag them to the right where the votes are, and that if you withhold your vote when the alternative is someone who promised to be dictator on day one (and more recently says he’ll send the military to deal with “the enemy within”, which is apparently left wing folk), your vote isn’t winnable anyway and you’ve excluded yourself from the very effect on voting you claim to be having, but none of that makes any difference to the people calling themselves leftists who want trump to win.
I think you nailed it with “leftists”. The comment I responded to didn’t bother with the quotes.
The whole point of this obvious right wing psy-op is to drive a wedge between liberals and leftists. When liberals don’t distinguish between “leftists” and leftists, it plays right into their hands.
These operatives are running a two pronged attack. They aren’t just impersonating leftists, they also imitate liberals preaching from their high horses like Hillary Clinton on steroids. Liberals should take care not to do that work for them.
I advocate firmly for my friends and family to vote for Harris. But I can’t support genocide, so my ballot will not include a vote for president.
So you’re happy to let Donald “finish them” “best king of Israel” “Biden shouldn’t try to hold Netanyahu back, he should do the opposite” Trump lead the western world?!? I think you really need to reexamine the effect of your actions.
I suppose if that is the only two options then whatever, I’m not voting for the lesser of two genocides, but I’m also truly sorry if that offends you. There are many other ballot options for me to consider
I hope Kamala wins, but it is her own fault if she loses against trump
The democrats can recruits millions from the current generation if they just change their policy in one or two simple ways look at the numbers
“I hope the cancer doesn’t kill me, but I won’t do any of the things my doctor recommends to help fight it.”
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When the election is over, what will you call people who don’t want the US to support genocide when you can’t call them all trumpers?
The logical error implicit in your question is that allowing Donald “finish them” Trump to win is obviously worse for Gaza, so I don’t believe for a minute that anyone calling for folks to exclude themselves from affecting whether the country gets Trump or Harris in the White House actually cares about Gaza at all, even a little bit.
The logical error implicit in your question is that allowing Donald “finish them” Trump to win is obviously worse for Gaza
I’m still voting for Harris, and have never advocated for not voting, voting third party, or voting for trump. You’ve ignored this multiple times because it’s contrary to your “anti-genocide = pro-trump” narrative.
Where did you find yourself in what I said?
Guess I was wrong about you being able to admit mistakes as well.
Anti-Harris = Pro-Trump
Anti-genocide != anti-Harris, but every genocide supporter interprets it so because they don’t want the genocide to stop until it’s complete.
That’s not my narrative AT ALL. My narrative is that the people who argue that caring about Gaza or caring about left wing issues means you should exclude yourself from deciding between Kamala Harris and Donald “best King of Israel” Trump aren’t really left wing or pro Gaza people at all, they’re trumpers trying to suppress left wing votes. Tindiril seemed not to realise they exist, but the rest of the thread has them out in spades. I’ve never taken issue with people hating what’s going on in Gaza and spreading to Lebanon, I just keep pointing out that allowing Trump back in the White House will be worse for Gaza and worse for anything left wing.
My narrative is that people who argue that caring about Gaza of caring about left wing issues means you should exclude yourself from deciding between Kamala Harris and Donald “best King of Israel” Trump are trumpers.
You know I’m not one of those people. And yet, since you can’t abide anyone being unhappy about genocide, you keep pretending I am.
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Get over yourself, find a good-fairh argument to have for once.
The only thing you consider good faith is support for the wholesale murder of every last Palestinian.
Won’t matter, we all know that most of you won’t be around then.
Why is that? What are you implying?
Make your bullshit accusation overtly.
So you can report me? Not on your life. I know your game, bud.
So you just admitted that you’re calling me something that breaks the community rules.
Yeah, super ignorant take that purported lefties on Lemmy are playing spoiler under the guise of condemning genocide.
The post was for astroturfing fucks on Lemmy. Way to miss the point.
Read your comment that I responded to. There is no indication whatsoever that you aren’t among the large contingency that actually thinks these freaks are leftists. When you mimic idiotic Democratic establishment talking points, you will get treated like a Democratic establishment idiot.
Way to fail to make the point.
Thanks for telling me what my point was, dipshit.
Dude, it was you who claimed I “missed the point” and explained what your point was. Had you not originally buried your point in sarcasm that was indistinguishable from Democratic establishment douchebagery this might have been a very different conversation.
Right wing operatives are trying to drive wedges and your playing right into their strategy. Most of the “undecided” rhetoric comes from or is amplified by right wing bots, as does the worst of the establishment scolding. I’m all for calling out the trolls, as long as your not doing their work by not making it clear who your attacking.
We want the same thing in November, but I don’t think your attitude is helping us get there.
To be clear - the “leftists” I mentioned above aren’t really leftists. Next time I’ll add the /s next to it to be clear. The whole point of the post was to call out bad faith actors.
Then you came in missing the point.
Now as I understand it, you’re suggesting I word my posts better so you catch the sarcasm?
Nah, fam. Thanks though.
You decline, but at least putting “leftists” in quotes is an improvement.
If you can’t be distinguished from the bad faith posts other bots make purporting to be liberals, I guess you’ll just save them the trouble of doing it themselves.
Democrats are losing to a multiple convicted felon con man who can’t form complete sentences
But they refuse to change anything in their campaign while they attack their own base and try to shame them into voting dem. It’s really pathetic.
Oh, I agree. Every time Hillary pops her head up this is what she does, and Obama is only better because he knows how to be subtle.
On the other hand, right wing trolls are also driving this message, and being even more obnoxious than Hillary.
The pattern through all of modern history is one of liberals failing to address rising fascism because socialism is what scares them more. Then the fascists win, the system implodes because fascists are incompetent, maybe a few million people die, then the liberals return to start the cycle over. It’s pathetic that liberals can’t stop repeating this tragedy over and over again.
it’s quite different from Trump’s bombastic rhetoric: He has repeatedly said that Israel has to “finish the job.” The former president’s Friday comments appear to be an attempt to paint Biden, and by extension, Harris, as being less supportive of Israel than him
Trump wants genocide escalated and completed on a faster timetable. If you don’t think that includes the West Bank in the long-term plan, you’re being naive.
Biden is trying to get a ceasefire deal from a madman. Harris needs to win the election and can’t if Israel turns against her. Trump actively wants to commit accelerated genocide on Palestinians.
Anyone who is pro-Palestinian and is thinking about voting for Trump needs to be aware of the long-term consequences.
Anyone who is pro-Palestinian and is thinking about voting for Trump needs to be aware of the long-term consequences.
*Anyone who is pro-Palestine and is thinking about not voting or voting for anyone other than Harris, just to be clear.
The foundational lesson of the trolley problem is not about the effects of the two options, it’s that not pulling the lever is a choice too.
Third-party voters, I know the psychological reaction to being told you “have to” vote for Harris causes you to dig in further, to be more contrarian. I know the feeling. So to be clear, you don’t have to do anything. But we can’t escape the ethical and moral effects of a choice not to mitigate harm. The dominos are lined up, pushing the one that says “Stein” or “No choice” will cause the one that says “Trump” to fall, it’s as simple as that. Our moral culpability doesn’t end at the ballot box, it ends at the end of rational foreseeability.
The right takes an oversimplified view of reality to avoid confronting complicated truths. Don’t be the same by thinking if we ignore a difficult moral choice, it goes away. Trump is telling you what he plans to do. Stopping him is a moral imperative if you want to save as much life as possible.
Biden is not trying to get a ceasefire deal from Netanyahu. If you are a parent and your kid is stabbing people, the way to go about it is not to say “please stop” and then hand them another knife.
Biden wants this to continue. The rest is rhetoric to make it look different. But every single supposed red line was crossed by Israel. Every time Biden said something bad about Netanyahu, he continued the arms shipments and reiterated how Israel is just defending itself hurr durr.
Now the US stationed some more soldiers in Israel to create a probable reason to escalate to war with Iran. Harris has reiterated that she stands by the side of Israel.
Meanwhile US law prohibits sending weapons to countries that hinder US aid, which is evident with Israel. The Biden admin is breaking US law. They could have stopped the weapons deliveries and they could have went on to let the legal system go rampage on the Reps still pushing for it.
They could have created the political situation to have decided the election in their favor many months ago. But they would rather have Trump take presidency again, than to stop Israel murdering more Arabs.
What now “genocide” folks?
Still think Trump is the better choice for Palestine and Gaza??
They know.
Oh I know. It was to call them out.
I replied. Feel free to read it.
American politics are unanimous on this issue. Biden complained Obama was being too hard on Neyanyahu. All Obama wanted is for Israel to stop bombing the innocent people in Gaza (and he asked Israel to halt building settlements for 3 months). Biden said that Obama was asking for too much and could risk Israel stop listening to the US. We reached this moment BECAUSE of Biden.
Trump sees how Washington is congratulating Biden while it’s the liberal college students condemning him. That’s a win-win situation in the mind of Republicans. In Trump’s mind, bombing Palestine is good because Biden is getting away with it. Trump is saying he can do it better but isn’t that what Trump says with everything. Is Trump new to you? Biden set this up.
Biden said that Obama was asking for too much and could risk Israel stop listening to the US.
So in your version of events, was Biden right that Israel would stop listening to the US? Like is Israel not listening to the US because Biden was unable to convince Obama? Or are you saying Israel does listen to the US and Biden is making Netanyahu do things he doesn’t really want to do?
Really not sure what your point is here.
was Biden right that Israel would stop listening to the US?
There’s nothing Israel is doing that Biden wants them to stop. So, this is hard to judge.
because Biden was unable to convince Obama?
The opposite. Obama wanted Israel to slow down attacks on Palestinians. Biden talked Obama into to applying less pressure (and Obama was not asking for much to begin with).
Biden is making Netanyahu do things he doesn’t really want to do?
I suggested nothing of the sort.
Really not sure what your point is here.
It was a rebuttal to a comment someone else made.
American politics are unanimous on this issue. Biden complained Obama was being too hard on Neyanyahu. All Obama wanted is for Israel to stop bombing the innocent people in Gaza (and he asked Israel to halt building settlements for 3 months). Biden said that Obama was asking for too much and could risk Israel stop listening to the US. We reached this moment BECAUSE of Biden.
Sure is neat how a VP can differ from a president when it’s in favor of Netanyahu.
Personally, I think Biden’s take on Palestine is insane. It’s like he as a personal stake on the continuation of making Palestinians miserable . Why do people still defend on when it comes to this? The best thing for these Democrats to do is what Harris is already doing; not talking about it since her plans on this issue WILL NOT help her campaign.
Why do people still defend on when it comes to this?
Because they also support genocide. There has never been and never will be another reason.
Rather unfortunate for you that the folks complaining about dnc being 100% complicit and funding the genocide, have never ever claimed that Trump is the better choice.
Also I love the genocide in quotes, really says all you need to know
It’s not that the claim he’s a better choice, the claim that he’s not a worse choice.
So we should be happy that our best option is moderately less horrible than our worst option and pretend we’re ok with that
moderately
🙄
For Palestinians he is slightly worse if not the same. So if that is the criteria for the choice, there is insignificant difference between them.
The difference might be to be killed in a few days (Trump) vs a few weeks to months (Harris).
Well at least you’re admitting he is the worse choice for Palestinians, so that’s a start.
He’s also far, far worse on every other issue I can think of, such as those directly impacting Americans.
Him being worse doesn’t make Harris good, she is just not that bad.
For people voting on that basis might decide immediate death would be better than definite death after prolonged suffering. That makes him better.
Gaza is a foolish hill to die on and make a choice on. Nothing you do or choose is going to make a difference.
He’s also far, far worse on every other issue I can think of, such as those directly impacting Americans.
He is no different than all the despots and dictators America has exported. He is no different than the founding fathers.
He is no different than all the despots and dictators America has exported. He is no different than the founding fathers.
What a mind numbingly stupid thing to say.
He is no different than the founding fathers.
Yikes
US politics is a zero sum game
From a purely strategic perspective, is this wise of Trump?
My impression is that even many American Jewish people don’t like Netanyahu. And he doesn’t need to remind anti-Harris protest voters that he’s even more anti Palestine. Many MAGA diehards don’t even like Netanyahu.
Like… who is he appealing to? Older Republicans, I guess, who remember Israel’s early days?
He’s appealing to people that hate Muslims.
And people who think the rapture starts with a holy war in Jerusalem.
Literally Armageddon.
The “left behind” Christians, who want nothing more than Armageddon.
Occam’s razor…
He’s appealing to himself
Fascist thinks fellow fascist should be free to do genocide faster and harder!
If he can keep steady poll numbers after an insurrection, my guess is that this won’t impact him at all.
Polling doesn’t capture turnout changes. This is the kind of thing that’s largest effect, if materialized, would be boosting dem turnout
Depends on the poll. State by state polls absolutely sample likely voters (aka, people who plan to turn out). Moreover, they use past polling and election data to inflate or deflate turnout likelihood if a consistent gaps exists between what a cohort historically says and what a cohort historically does.
They don’t easily capture changes to turnout between election cycles is my point. They rely on assumptions of what turnout will look like to weight their polling
The best proxy is voter enthusiasm, but its not perfect
Yeah, but most elections these days generally fall within the margins of polls. The historical trend data is generally doing a decent job of predicting future behavior.
IMHO, the bigger issue is that some races are so tight that they can’t be reliably predicted. The winner is buried within the margin of error.
Oh, I don’t think there’s any political calculation to 99% of what Trump says anymore. This is more about how much he likes “strongmen”. Hell, lots of folks in Israel don’t even like Netanyahu anymore.
Hell, lots of folks in Israel don’t even like Netanyahu anymore.
Apparently he’s reasonably popular?
His polls have recently somewhat improved, but are still down from where they were historically. Earlier this year they were absolutely abysmal so the bar was on the floor for them to be seen as “on the rise”
According to an earlier poll conducted by Israel’s Channel 12 on July 13, 70% of Israelis supported Netanyahu’s dismissal, while 44% demanded his immediate resignation.
Another poll conducted on April 12 showed that 35% of Israelis supported Netanyahu.
It’s one of the reasons he has been stalling on ceasefire talks - the war is the only thing keeping him in power.
It’s one of the reasons he has been stalling on ceasefire talks - the war is the only thing keeping him in power.
I may be wrong about this, but I think I remember reading something last year about him being in legal trouble but there’s a law that stops him from being prosecuted if the country is involved in “military operations?”
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trial_of_Benjamin_Netanyahu
The prosecution rested in June 2024. The schedule for the testimony of witnesses for the defense is scheduled to be determined on July 9, 2024.
Certainly guessing they’re trying to delay as much as possible.
July 9, 2024.
Hmmm… I’m no calendarologist but it seems to me that October is after July…
Thanks for the link! They didn’t mention anything about the law I thought existed so I guess that’s not a thing.
Yeah, this trial has been going on forever. Looks like he has to testify in early December (his lawyers had wanted to push off until March next year)
This is an archive of the best article I could find - basically his lawyers had used the war as an excuse for the delay, but that didn’t fly.
His followers will believe whatever Trump says, and whatever Trump says is what they’ve always believed, even if they didn’t.
He’s apppealing to the evil people. The ones that want to watch the world burn, or are too stupid to understand the consequences of radical global actions.
even many American Jewish people don’t like Netanyahu
The may not like Netanyahu but they’re quite alarmed by what they see on the left side of the Democratic party. If they’re concerned that Harris will be influenced by the left, either due to personal sympathy or political considerations, then Trump does have some appeal since he’s making it quite clear that he’s definitely not like that.
Oh no equality and empathy how could she
You mean the anti-genocide protestors that were never voting for Trump? Like the ones that decided to vote for an actually progressive candidate?
Like the ones that decided to vote for an actually progressive candidate?
Aka vote for Trump.
I’m normally quite pro-third party and pro-progressive, but this is not the time.
It will never be the time. You think the next Republican won’t be even worse?
Lesser evilism is the perfect way to get you to vote for them every single election. You will never vote for a different party.
So you turned into a pro-genocide Republican?
…No? If I protest vote against Harris, I help vote Trump into office on razor thin margins, who is even more pro genocide.
Again, I’m normally quick to vote third party or protest vote, but this is not the time.
You support genocide cause you’re scared? I wonder if Palestinians are scared.
Like we could ask Uncommitted what they think? Or is it only specific people we should listen to?
Go home, propaganda.
What did I say that was propaganda? I have another question… Are you in a cult?
I refer you to my previous comment.
Harris saying she’ll fund genocide isn’t propaganda, but keep telling yourself whatever lies you need to hear to vote for her.
There it is.
Yep, you’re ignoring the evidence and lying:
https://www.npr.org/2024/01/26/1227078791/icj-israel-genocide-gaza-palestinians-south-africa
Harris has never supported the genocide, she supports an immediate cease fire and a two state solution which is the OPPOSITE of supporting the genocide:
March - https://www.npr.org/2024/03/04/1234822836/kamala-harris-benny-gantz-gaza-cease-fire-israel-hamas
July - https://www.politico.com/news/2024/07/25/harris-netanyahu-israel-cease-fire-00171315
Jill Stein, the progressive candidate that has dinner parties in Russia with Mike Flynn.
How many dinner parties are we talking about here and has anyone provided any actual evidence that she is secretly a Russian in disguise? There is evidence that Kamala has stated she’ll keep funding genocide though.
Once was enough for me to put her in the traitor column right with Flynn and the rest of the GOP. As for Palestine, aren’t you bored talking to me? I am with talking to you. I will keep supporting Genocide Joe through the end of his term, and I plan on casting my vote for Harris today.
This dumb fuck is gaining in the polls.
I just…can’t anymore
Keep in mind that the polls right now are also being flooded with right wing aligned groups
Yeah, polls much like any mathematics based discipline are susceptible to garbage in garbage out. You can have the perfect model but if the raw data put into it is shit then all youll get out of it is shit.
Are we really being upset about a line moving up a couple of pixels when we’re talking about polling on Trump? The polls have never been accurate on Trump and besides that there really isn’t really a model for a convicted felon that tried to overthrow democracy running in a Presidential election. Nobody will know what the numbers are until the votes are counted.
No matter what the polls say it doesn’t change what needs to be done. Vote. Support the Harris campaign in whatever way you’re able to. If Trump was polling at 60% or if he was polling at 30% it wouldn’t change what needs to be done.
Vote.
Fuck Netanyahu.
and fuck Donald Trump.
Oh, Netty is taking care of that for you.
Honestly, is there anyone alive today with more blood on their hands than Benjamin Netanyahu?
It’s sad to say, but yes. Gaza is a horrific tragedy, but it is an admittedly small corner of the world.
The Palestinian health ministry has reported 40,000+ Palestinian dead. Meanwhile, George W. Bush is responsible for the deaths of over a million Iraqis following his completely unnecessary invasion of Iraq. He’s still kicking, probably using some of that blood on his hands for the painting he does now.
Putin is also pulling comparable numbers as Bibi in Ukraine, though that conflict has been going on for a little bit longer than the one in Gaza. But that’s also not counting how many of his own men he sent to their deaths, which is estimated to be over 100,000.
Henry Kissinger would also be on this list but thankfully it’s been almost a year since his long-awaited demise.
And that’s really only looking at conflict. Not factoring in others who are responsible for large-scale humanitarian crises that may end up killing many more people just from disease or starvation.
The Palestinian health ministry has reported 40,000+ Palestinian dead.
That only counts people who get found, obviously it doesn’t count the tens of thousands who are dead or dying under the rubbel. The real number is probably an order of magnitude higher.
Not to detract from your point, but the real number of deaths in Gaza is estimated to be between 100-200 thousand.
Fair, and that’s also where things get muddy when trying to factor in the humanitarian crisis aspect into it all. Number of dead due to starvation, lack of medical care, preventable disease, and so on is impossibly hard to get an accurate number of.
I just feel like this is a story we’re going to keep hearing over and over, forever. Darfur yesterday, Gaza today, who is tomorrow?
Trump’s response to covid. Putin’s entire career. Kim Jong Un’s slow starvation of his entire fucking nation. But Netanyahu is up there and we should stop letting him write our foreign policy.
don’t forget
MaoXi.sorry, Pooh bear.
Yeah, him too. But I’m not gonna minimize the perpetrator of an ongoing genocide either. Netanyahu is a piece of shit and we shouldn’t be supporting his genocide. No matter how much centrists want to. We should cease selling him weapons right now. Centrists might not get everything they want for the first time ever, but they can vote blue no matter who.
Honestly, yeah. Whoever is running the genocide in Sudan, probably.
Currently this jolly fella
Bush is up there but if Netanyahu hasn’t already passed him, he definitely will as the genocide continues.
Assad is right up there. 500k-600k in the last 10 years in Syria.
That’s about the same yearly average as Israel in Gaza (so far) but for 10+ years ongoing.
But I expect the humanitarian crisis to result in the death rate in Gaza to increase unless the US grows a pair.
The death rate has already gone way down as Israel shifted from assault to low intensity warfare in Gaza. Look at these numbers from the UN in June: https://www.ochaopt.org/content/reported-impact-snapshot-gaza-strip-19-june-2024
Notice the curve flattening? According to Al Jazeera the death toll is at 42,500 now. So 5 months to get to 30K (assault phase). Then 7 months to get from 30K to ~43K (low intensity phase). So it’s a rate of less than 2K per month now. At the present rate, the Israel-Hamas war would have to go on for over 23 years to get to the level of casualties from the Syrian civil war.
Yahya Sinwar was just killed because he had to go above ground with only two guards. Do you really think Hamas is going to hold out for 23 years? Come on, you’re smarter than this.
Sorry but the numbers just don’t fit the genocide narrative that people here can’t let go of. If you’re starting from genocide being the absolute truth, then you’re incentivized to ignore a lot of facts and start saying things that don’t make a lot of sense to conform to a narrative.
W & Dick Cheney
“He’s doing a good job,”
thanks, Hitler
Trump wants, and largely has, the “Nuke 'em all and let God sort 'em out!” vote.
And yet, if comments on this site are to be believed, he’s still also getting the, “We refuse to vote Democrat because we’re against the genocide!” crowd (sorry guys, but not voting or voting third party is a vote for Trump. You cannot escape it).
You cannot escape it
With state level electoral reform we can “escape” FirstPast The Post voting and the spoiler effect that comes along with it. Why dont democrats, who bring up the faults of of the voting system every election, pass this much needed reform in states they control?
The DNC would prefer trump torching the country over having to compete for your vote.
True. I think it’s more about whether Harris can pull in the “genocide bad” folks, or loses them to third-party protest votes. Of course if any of those folks were paying attention to the crap coming out of Trump’s mouth, they’d understand how much worse Trump will be. I had folks (hexbear and .ml of course) on a different post telling me that not only would Harris and Trump be the same on this, but that Harris would actually be worse. And of course they’re willfully ignoring how bad Trump would be on everything else.
I have a suspicion that part of what’s pushing Harris’ campaign strategy right now to focus on courting more “centrists” is that they know whatever she did to appeal to the left that’s not voting for her would never be enough to satisfy them. Far easier to court the middle with straightforward messaging than to appeal to a voting bloc that is already determined to hate anyone that’s not as chaotic as they are.
True. I think it’s more about whether Harris can pull in the “genocide bad” folks
I haven’t seen her try. Have you?
Like clockwork…
I almost feel powerful due to my ability to summon them.
Hey, at least she has you “genocide good” folks on lock.
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That’s not what you are. It’s ALL you are. When you support genocide, it defines everything about you as a person.
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It’s so frustrating,… Because I want Harris to win so bad for the sake of the Palestinian people (among other things), and yet, some part of me just wishes there was some way for you to see the outcome of your idiotic actions without having to kill millions of Palestinians, Lebanese, and other Arabs. Some way for you you realize just how fucking stupid it is to do anything that would help Trump win.
Or maybe not you, but someone who actually gives a shit about those people and is considering not voting or throwing their vote away by voting third party… Because, frankly, I don’t even believe you.
Thanks for proving my point.
Not that you’ll read it, but I think this might help explain:
https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2024/09/kamala-harris-israel-policy-palestine-gaza-war.html
Perhaps Harris’ loudest statement, however, was prefaced by her absence. Shortly after getting the nod from Biden in July, Harris snubbed Netanyahu, skipping his speech to Congress. (She spoke to a Black sorority, instead.) The next day, she met privately with him—later describing their talk as “frank and productive,” words that your boss might use after a performance review goes poorly.
The reaction to her remarks was underwhelming at the time, but the remarks themselves were extraordinary. “We cannot allow ourselves to become numb to the suffering” of Palestinians in Gaza, “and I will not be silent,” she told reporters and cameras. “Israel has a right to defend itself—but how it does so matters.” It was as close as a sitting vice president could possibly come to reading Netanyahu for filth without creating a diplomatic crisis.
Her messaging regarding unconditional support for the genocide all centrists love is more convincing than subtle hints that slate has to speculate about.
A nuanced take as always /s
Did you even get to the end of the article or did you just read the headline?
Harris has very little room to maneuver, however, without losing a huge part of her base and the party machinery that are still deeply attached to Israel. There is only so much a candidate and sitting vice president can do or say to break with the position held by her staunchly Zionist president, a Democratic establishment beholden to the pro-Israel lobby and AIPAC, and a broad swath of her liberal base that strongly supports Israel and its war. If she’s serious about getting elected, she has to withhold the kind of unambiguous statement—or action—that pro-Palestine activists demand. So she’s reduced to tone of voice, oblique gestures, a message hidden between the lines.
Did you even get to the end of the article or did you just read the headline?
I read the article. I don’t buy excuses and apologia when we’re talking about literal genocide. I also regard with earned disgust anyone who makes such excuses.
The whole “she absolutely can’t differ from Biden in any way except for these subtle hints we speculate about” thing is garbage. She’s not the secretary of state. She’s not running everything behind the scenes like Dick Cheney, though she seems to have garnered his approval, and it speaks volumes that centrists were so goddamned happy about his endorsement. In any event, she is free to differ on foreign policy and chooses not to.
I’m still voting for her. I’m going to be at the polls this coming Monday, which is when early voting opens here in Texas. I have every right to criticize her for supporting Netanyahu’s genocide, even if Netanyahu’s apologists want me to buy that she has shown any opposition whatsoever to the only policy centrists seriously hold.
Okay, let’s play this out. What exactly do you want her to say? Specifically. Because it’s not like as VP she can do anything about it directly. So this is just going to be a statement, right?
Let’s say as part of that statement, she says Israel should get no more aid. That would be the crux of it, correct? And Biden then has to come out and say, that’s not happening while I’m President. Factions within the Democrats withdraw funding and support from her campaign. And the Iranians start actually drooling about being able to basically act unopposed. Hezbollah gets some shiny new missiles to kill more civilians. Centrists withdraw support from Harris and more than likely sit out the election, though a few may move over to Trump. November 6 rolls around and Trump wins, the region is even more of a shitshow than it is now, and just as important, Palestinians will still be dying. And under Trump it will get much, much worse.
Or…she tries to thread a very small needle, gets elected, and can the come to the bargaining table as the newly sworn-in President. She still has to juggle a bunch of different interests, but as President she has the power to do more than make statements and has quite a bit of latitude when it comes to foreign policy. Harris wouldn’t have been my top choice, or even in my top 5, but I can honestly say I can’t believe she won’t make saving Palestinian lives a priority, unlike Biden. But she can’t do it as a candidate.
If you’re exceptionally fascist, Trump will allot you extra praise. This is earnest as well - it’s because he was mentored by a fascist type personality in Roy Cohn - and raised by a ruthless racist Capitalist in the form of his father who refused to rent his properties to black people (putting a ‘c’ on their applications to indicate they were people of color).
Disconnection From Reality #29874
God. I can’t believe how the bots are shifting the Overton window and how successful they are.
Boggles my mind that anybody intends to vote for Trump not Harris because they think he’ll be better for Palestine.
Lemmy right-wing: Biden is too soft on Netanyahu!
