Don’t get me wrong, I will probably cave at the last minute and vote SNP again for a number of reasons. Mostly, being supportive of a number of their progressive policies that I have benefited from over the years, and also because my constituency is a two horse race between them and the Tories who I will never vote for. Though the SNP are probably now at their lowest point in years since they finally managed to oust Sturgeon.
I will also never vote Labour, they have no identity here and during the 2019 election they were campaigning for the Tories to oust SNP here, so 100% fuck them too.
I once voted for Lib Dem and we ended up with the catastrophic Clegg/Cameron coalition (though due to FPTP my vote didn’t matter there.)
I would like to vote for Green, but it would be a wasted vote here.
It’s just bizarre to me that Westminster’s voting system is such that a vast majority of votes in the UK are binned, how is this considered normal?
Sorry for the rant, but I am just so incredibly disillusioned with politics in this shitehole of a country but absolutely refuse to be passive about it since that is what they want us to be.
No. I consider it crucial to remove the current Tory government, and while the likely Labour government may not be perfect in my eyes they would still be an improvement.
Rain or shine I will turn up on polling day to vote for whoever has the best of chance of unseating the incumbent Conservative MP I’m stuck with.
That’s what FPTP does, is turn every election into a hostage crisis. We need to stump for a better system while we play along with this one.
Annoyingly, I don’t see how this is done though.
Those with the power to push for a voting system change are the ones voted in by the current voting system. Unless we get some real, for the good of the country, politicians they’re unlikely to vote for a system that would see them not voted in.
The most realistic scenario to make that happen, if we’re talking purely hypotheticals, is a coalition government between libdems and labs, where the former demands RCV as a concession.
Is it currently likely? No, but it’s definitely something you could read in a history book and it wouldn’t make you fall out of your chair.
Even in the event of a Lib/Lab coalition, Labour would likely require any voting reform too through a referendum as a final get-out. I don’t think anyone wants a repeat of the AV referendum (or maybe any referendum in general for that matter).
Although if we find ourselves with an ascending Reform Party, who support PR, and declining Conservative Party, who might come round to it out of desperation, that could leave Labour alone as the FPTP holdout.
I could see that, if we do see a severe Conservative rout after the election. All we need now is an ascendant reform party…
I have a feeling that the election after next will just be back to Tories anyway.
All of those that voted selfishly will still vote selfishly once the country is in a state to offer them something again.
Do you feel conservatism is alive and flourishing in the next generation of voters?
I’m not so sure though. The reason that labour are winning is not because of anything they’ve done, and everything because of what the Tories have done. They know that, they also know that the public have very short memories and they may very well decide in 2025 that they should give the Tories another go. Now of course it all depends on what ends up happening in the next 5 years which of course is something that cannot be predicted but it’s certainly a possibility they will have to think about.
They know the public want a different voting system so it may very well be a good vote winner while at the same time the alternate system would basically ensure that the extreme hard right Tories (Which at this point is basically the whole party) would never get into power again. It could kill two birds with one stone.
Yep, SNP it is then.
Firstly, I upvoted the post because I’d like to see more discussion in this community rather than mere news.
As for your idea about spoiling your ballot. I’m not sure I understand the point of spoiling if you yourself would admit that you’d happily vote Green. Vote Green (if possible).
A sudden uptick in votes for other parties might do more to get the bigger parties to take notice then drawing a dick on your ballot paper.
It’s definitely between Green and SNP for me I think. I’ll wait and see what the manifestos put forward but likely SNP will be the only option for getting the tories out anyway, once again.
I’m just tired and frustrated of doing this in every single election and having the rest of the UK shit the bed and vote Tory anyway. I’ve put a £100 bet on with a friend that the Tories will win again even though they’re polling real low. I just have no faith in the electorate to do anything but vote against their own interests.
I just don’t feel like this is the time. Tories out is the only measurable positive outcome that can be achieved at the next election. So I would advocate to vote for whatever is the most likely to help with that.
One the Tories are gone, the next target simply has to be proportional representation otherwise they will be back in 10 years or so. And the only way to achieve THAT is to organise!
My stance has been Tories out since the Cameron and Clegg love affair, I have voted on that basis ever since. I’ll likely vote SNP to get rid of them.
Not to mention SNP are the loudest advocates for PR in the UK, even though they stand to lose the most from it (by far).
I suspect that if either main party in England started to adopt PR policies they’d find a way to moderate their stance, exactly for the reason you describe. For example, that English votes don’t apply.
The SNP, on Westminster issues, have a very easy role to play because they are perpetual opposition. I agree with them on a lot, if not most, things they say, but as we saw with the gaza ceasefire amendment debacle, if they have an opportunity to paint Westminster and/or Labour in a negative light, they will take that route instead. It’s a shame really.
Lol no matter what your stance is, not voting is the worst possible thing you can do.
Every spoiled ballot has to be counted and reviewed, a spoiled ballot is a “this is a person that took the time to turn up to vote and we didn’t manage to win them over.”
There is a massive difference between spoiling a ballot and just not voting.
I don’t think a spoiled ballot sends as strong a message as you think it does.
They don’t get counted at all. There is stats for spoiled ballots but that is every ballot that isn’t counted in the election, so say someone ticked two boxes instead of one, or if they used a pencil and it got rubbed away before counting, they all go together and nothing happens with them.
Not voting isn’t doing.
Spoiling your ballot is voting - that’s the point.
But it’s voting for nobody. So it doesn’t actually count for anything. The only way it would, would be if “spoiled ballots” “wins” by having the most, then ever running MP in that constituency has to step down, be replaced by someone else and the election re-ran. But that will never ever happen so it’s futile to spoil imo.
I think that’s a myth.
If spoiled ballots “win” nothing happens and the person with the most votes is elected anyway.
There’s no way to tell the difference between accidentally spoiling a ballot and a protest vote, so they just don’t mean anything.
If you’re hoping that politicians will feel enough shame to step down if no one votes for them, then I’d like to introduce you to our last two prime ministers.
the worst possible thing you can do.
lol, it really fucking isn’t (and I can’t even imagine being privileged enough, nor ignorant enough of how politics work, to even come up with that line)
I think it’s better to vote for a party which has no chance of winning than to spoil your vote. At the very least it communicates what kinds of policies you would like to see and what policies would win your vote in the future.
I constantly think about the 2015 general election and how UKIP got almost 4 million votes (the third highest number of votes amongst all the parties). I feel that this caused a shift within the Conservative party towards populist, Eurosceptic, and anti-environmental ideals because they realised by doing so they could win back those 4 million voters.
I would personally never spoil my ballot for this reason. I don’t think it’s especially valuable to communicate that you’re not happy with anything without communicating what would make you happy.
I’m currently in a circular debate with myself as to whether to vote Labour or Green. The classic eternal debate of “splitting the left vote” which we must deal with since we use an archaeic First-Past-The-Post system which should not exist in any modern democracy. I don’t even especially like the Greens but a vote for them may communicate that one of my biggest values is preserving the environment and tackling climate change. Perhaps this could encourage Labour to establish policies to address these things in order to win back Green votes.
I don’t see the point really. Been having this conversation recently with someone who said the same. The problem is, while technically it’s counted as spoiled for the statistics, it’s effectively voting for no change. If you are unhappy with the state of things then you have to vote for the lesser of all evils imo. Voting tactically is what everyone who wants to spoil should do I think. Unless they are somewhat happy with the current situation and don’t want change ofc.
No party is perfect, and obviously it’s still a little early to tell as I will read the manifestos of all, except the conservatives this year as just their behaviour recently has been enough to tell them to get fucked.
Absolutely not. I’ll be voting for whoever has the best chance of keeping the Tories out of my constituency. That’s probably the SNP, but if it’s Labour I’ll damn well vote Labour. I’d take a lack of identity over all this in a heartbeat.
Witnessing Labour campaigning for the Tories sealed that decision for me for life. 100% fuck them, Red tory cunts.
Lesser of 2 evils when it comes to Westminster. But I won’t vote for them, and fortunately I’m in a constituency where Labour have never won, and have absolutely zero presence regardless. Their local branch building is essentially a shed.
It’s your vote to do with as you wish, obviously, but for so long as we’re voting in an FPTP system then getting the lesser of two evils is the top priority. It’s nice if that actually means voting for a party you are happy to vote for, but I’d even vote Tory if the alternative was a Reform government. Fortunately we’re not in a situation that’s quite as bad as that.
Don’t get me wrong, if it was the situation where I had to pick between Labour or Tory then obviously I would be forced to vote Labour. But fortunately I’m not in that predicament.
A spoiled ballot is slightly better than not voting at all.
However, as frustrating as it is, it does little to help you or anyone’s situation. We have to deal with this crappy voting system and basically hope that at some point there’ll be an opportunity to change it.
Instead of spoiling it, vote for your local Monster Raving Luny party candidate and help get their deposit back. (Or any other niche party you like)
Otherwise - unless you were a student at the time (me 😭) wasn’t the coalition a much better result than a full conservative government?
I didn’t vote Lib Dem to end up with the fucking tories, which is exactly what happened. I’m not surprised their support plummeted after that.
I was a student at the time, but fortunately, I’m Scottish, so the student loans fiasco didn’t apply.
What did you expect then? They would never have got a majority, a coalition or vote trading is the best they could have hoped for.
They didn’t do as much as they had hoped, but probably still better than a Tory majority (for the apparent userbase here). The alternative would have been either a minority government or another election?
I didn’t expect much if I am honest, I wasn’t that politically engaged during that election. I took the time to read and appreciate the manifesto, went off to vote, then realised afterwards what you had outlined there. Again, fortunately it didn’t matter because my constituency didn’t return a Lib dem MP, but I was still pissed.
Not really, the conservatives steam rollered the lib dems. Ultimately it was just a conservative agenda enabled by the lib dems.
The lib Dems, unfortunately, relied on us votes being rational. They gave up most of their agenda to get a vote on changing away from FFTP. Unfortunately, enough people used it as a protest vote against them.
They gave up most of their agenda
This isn’t particularly true tbh, whilst they absolutely gave up on student loans, they still got a lot of their manifesto implemented. To the point their activists bragged about it during the 2015 election.
https://whatthehellhavethelibdemsdone.com/
The major problem is that they also believed in the economically illiterate policy of austerity, so it didn’t matter what they achieved because they were still burning the house down.
The lib dem bend-over can be summarised in two letters:
AVThere was compromise though, I can’t remember exactly what it was, but I seem to remember them taking the crazy off the top of the conservative agenda and bringing them closer to centre?
That was before I could vote though, so wasn’t entirely paying enough attention.
In a word, yes. They moderated the Tories. Arguably that moderation made the Tories seem less bad and led to them winning in 2015.
I only have anecdotal evidence but: spoiling your ballot is less effective than voting for a third party with a flagship policy you want one of the main parties to adopt.
And that’s less effective than joining the membership of the party you want to influence and raising the issues from within.
And that has less impact for your life than getting involved in your local political activity.
When they are reading out the results they do say how many spoiled ballots there were, the problem is the BBC et el usually cut off just as that is being read and they don’t count it across the country or keep the results and as the results start coming in faster you don’t hear it. The spoiled ballots doesn’t seem to make it into any of the official stats for an election that I can see. So unfortunately its one of those acts that ought to be better than not voting but in practice turns out to be basically the same.
I certainly wont be voting for the Conservatives or Labour but as far as protests go I am better off voting for another party that wont win as a protest than spoiling the ballot as it will be more visible and included in all the stats.
My parents used to do election counting, they don’t count spoiled ballots, they just get thrown away.
I had heard the opposite from local counting volunteers. I was told that the MPs are told how many spoiled ballots there were as that is key analytics to knowing how many undecided voters they failed to win over.
Maybe that’s not the case anymore and a spoiled ballot doesn’t have the same message.
I’ve done a bit of research and apparently there’s a stat kept of the ‘uncounted’ ballots, this includes spoiled ballots, ones incorrectly filled in, ones that get damaged, etc.
After a boundary change a lot of people I know are now in one of the safest seats in the country, so their vote is pointless but most still get out and vote - some for the Greens (as the more votes they get, the clearer it is the system is broken) and I know one person who has been spoiling their vote for 50 years in a protest about something or other.
I’m in a previously Tory seat that’s now solidly Labour and should stay that way in my lifetime but it doesn’t pay to take your eye off the ball.
The worst thing is not voting, as the Tories will use voter apathy as an excuse to wriggle out of taking responsibility for their trouncing. So if you can’t bring yourself to vote for anyone then spoiling your paper is better than not voting.
No, I’m voting to get the Tories out because fuck them and all the horses they rode in on.
This screams Russian interference.
No. Do not spoil your ballot. Vote as your conscious demands.
Does it fuck. I am Scottish, not some Russian bot.
The Russians already won when they convinced the plebs to vote for Brexit to separate the UK the EU as they planned.
Indicating I would consider spoiling my ballot, then outlining detailed reasons as to why based on my local choices, should really tell you everything you need to know.
the plebs
O_o
Well, shit. I just looked up the definition and never knew it was actually slang to refer to the lower class. My (low class) dad always used it as “idiot” and I never questioned it before. The more you know.
So stand up and run yourself, or spread the message of dissent. I think Labour are a lot better than the Tories, who are a total goon squad of moral and financial corruption. The SNP has wrecked many things in their pursuit of power but done little to actually help the country (Scotland). I saw the education system wrecked while I lived there. The police command concentrated in Glasgow was also ridiculous, instead of locally knowledgeable groups able to judge things for themselves.
Is our shit government and shit opposition also a Russian plot?
Well to be fair, I won’t be surprised if many Tories and Farrage’s circus are paid by Putin.
They’re all on GB news since Russia Today got banned.
The sooner Brexit is reversed the better.
Would you rather there were only 2 parties to vote for? Things change, vote for who you want regardless of their chances of getting in. But FPTP definitely sucks.
