- cross-posted to:
- [email protected]
- cross-posted to:
- [email protected]
You must log in or # to comment.
The article: “a bunch of us are worried about the potential rise of fascism in the United States, so we’re moving to Italy”
Tell me that you are oblivious to international politics without literally telling me that you are oblivious to international politics.
More to the point, if Americans were the type to “flee in droves,” left-wingers would have left states like Texas and Florida en-masse for bluer pastures. Moving within the United States is a million times easier than moving overseas, and if they’re not doing the former in the face of fascism/degradation of human rights in red states, why on earth would they engage in the much more difficult latter? Definitely sounds like a case of taking anecdote and non-committal musings online too seriously.
Many people are doing that. And republicans are migrating in the opposite direction, too.
The problem is most people can’t just up and leave.its expensive, we have to line up jobs, housing, etc; and many people don’t want to leave family and friends.
I would love to leave but america falling to fascism is just the beginning. I’ve said it before. Give my life purpose. I dare you.
I dunno, something feels different this time. One of my co workers just asked for advice on what country to move to if Trump is re elected.
The reason I think it’s different this time is because this is the same co worker that used to make fun of me for thinking that Trump’s second term will usher in America’s first dictatorship. It ain’t funny now.
Glad somebody is waking up and paying attention.
Stay in the US. Honestly. The threat isn’t the rising tide of hateful rhetoric from right-wing extremists. The threat is that a bunch of christo-fascist doomsday worshippers get sole access to 50% of the nuclear weapons on the planet.
Depends on how they’re moving to Italy. They have generous repatriation laws if you are descended from an Italian who emigrated. So by following that repatriation process to reclaim Italian citizenship opens up the whole EU.
My friend and I moved to Germany last year. We met some Americans from st. Louis who moved the year before.
It’s anecdotal but not unreasonable to imagine some amount of brain drain is happening because of the instability in the US driven by late stage capitalism.
At one point my German husband was looking into becoming a US citizen, but just never got around to it. I stopped encouraging it years ago, because Germany has weird laws about dual citizenship and he would likely have to give his up to become a US citizen. As a result, we have a European exit plan. While I’d really like the US to get it’s shit together, knowing we have options is nice.
You no longer have to give up citizenship to be a German citizen, and the US doesn’t require that either. A new law passed this year and comes into effect sometime around April I believe (still new to the exact legislation process in this country).
But yes, I would not encourage anyone to move to the US at this time. They are the largest proponent of late stage capitalism and those policies bring instability to the worker classes which begets authoritarianism. That’s rarely a good thing for anyone.
Ohhh that’s good to know! We already live in the US though. I’ll have to look at the new legislation. Thanks for the info!
forget brain drain because of leaving the US, it’s brain drain from the lack of local industry. Nobody here knows how to do anything in regards to manufacturing lol.
I’m in Texas. I know less than a dozen Republicans and maybe 3 of them are Trumpsters. I voted in the Republican primary and, while researching candidates and propositions, i was shocked at how horrible they all are!!! I was trying to choose the least crazy candidates and they’re weren’t any!
Yeah we didn’t bother voting in the R primary for the same reason, no least worst candidate. We need to turn more states blue badly.
Moving to a different state within the US would do fuck-all to mitigate the kind of threats we’re worried about.
the republicans i know think that people are fleeing blue states to red states because of politics. the reality is that nobody is going anywhere.
The overwhelming majority of people die within like 20 miles of their birthplace.
Even traveling. I forget the stat I heard years ago but iirc it was a majority of people hadn’t even travelled outside of that. Which I get to some extent since most people live in cities, but having been raised in the middle of nowhere misery it’s necessary to travel more than 20 miles just to get to a damn grocery store. Once I had a car myself I was road tripping constantly
Ehh. People are moving to places that are cheaper. Look at Texas. Low taxes and cheap real estate compared to any blue state big city.
Climate comparable to Cali or CO. So if u sold a Cali house Texas is your best bet to replicate that u had or better for less money.
Those cheap states are cheaper cuz they’re corrupt shitholes.
Uh, no.
No state income tax, but those morons tax you for home ownership far more than some states. Electricity is more exp, even housing isn’t as cheap as it was 5 years ago. I paid more in property taxes in Texas than I pay here for property and state income on a house worth 3x what I had in Texass.
And where the hell in Texass are you saying has comparable weather with Colorado? Maybe south Colorado, or close to Kansas. But as a whole, texass weather has no match to anything as nice as Colorado weather.
Now the, that place is run by a corrupt bunch of fucktards.
deleted by creator
I agree with you. This is a non story
As someone who spent 20 years living in foreign countries, there is a political distance when you’re somewhere else. US politics are happening on a different part of the globe, and it takes a long time to really understand local politics. I’m leaving soon, but that’s happening whatever the outcome of the election as it was already planned.
Fleeing to where? If Americans are worried about the rise of fascism at home, I have bad news about the rest of the world. There are no greener pastures. The countries with better quality of life than the U.S. have very strict immigration laws. The U.S. is already the country you go to when yours sucks, no other democratic country has immigration policy as liberal. Trying to flee is circling the drain.
Maybe instead of trying to run away from problems, vote in the upcoming election and just prevent Trump’s dictatorship!
I hear you and we are voting. That said, backup plans are a thing for good reasons.
My wife is Jewish and something she once said to me lives rent free in my brain. “The gross majority of the Jews you know are descended from people who left when they had a feeling. The ones who waited until it was obviously bad did not make it out.”
Fascism is on the rise globally, but not every country will be led by someone who has actively courted neo-Nazis as part of their base. I saw how emboldened those people felt during his first term, and we anticipate it could only get much worse during a second. We do not want to leave, but we fear that staying may become unsafe for our family.
Me over here emigrating to a Scandinavian country. My family thought she was with me to get an anchor baby here in the us, little did they know it was I who was trying to sneak across borders.
Lmfao. I love this.
100%. The Conservative party is currently leading polls here in Canada because of the unpopularity of Justin Trudeau.
The Conservative party are also conspiracy-loving, reality-denying loonies like the Republicans, but since “we’re Canada”, and “it can’t happen here”, they’ll probably form the government next year.
The one upside of trump beating a deeply unpopular Biden would be it might give JT the impetus to acknowledge reality and move on.
Stop. I see your thinly veiled disinformation intention. Biden is not unpopular “deeply” enough for Trump to beat him.
As long as almost every pollster is wrong, sure you’ve got a point.
I don’t believe in polls because they all said Hilary was going to win. They also said that Trump was going to win again. Those polls mean nothing. For all I care, they’re being manipulated by Russia, China, North Korea and Iran.
For all I care, they’re being manipulated by Russia, China, North Korea and Iran.
This is the silliest MAGA style conspiracy nonsense…
You not understanding polling doesn’t mean they are disinformation, that’s a ridiculous thing to say. Or, maybe just like now, you dismissed information that you disliked and as such had another misinformed understanding of things.
Polling aggregators like 538 said that trump had a 1/3 chance of winning and the thing about 1/3 chances is that they happen about 1/3 times!
And then trump damn near won 2020 and lost by under 12,000 votes in one state. You can’t get much closer than that!
What a goof.
You’re still here?
Leave, please.
This is like when conservatives deny climate change because it is unpleasant.
Why do you think the polls were pretty much dead on for the 2022 midterms? Just blind luck?
Except they weren’t. Every poll presented all across social media was OMG RED WAVE!! Polls are shit. The only one that matters EVER is the one on election day.
The grass is not greener on the other side. The grass is greener where you water it.
Tell that to the losers who ripped it out and set the seed on fire
It has been AstroTurf for decades.
I moved to the Netherlands ages ago. It suits me very well, but many Americans would hate it. Rather than try to convince 300 million people that the Dutch way of life is better, I think it’s okay to just live here instead.
What are the big differences you’ve noticed?
There are lots of things that would bother many Americans. Taxes are high (top tax bracket is 50% or so, and that starts pretty low, plus 21% sales tax), salaries are less. Gas is expensive, people in cities don’t have cars, and most outline of cities have one car per home. Houses are small, shops close early.
The cultural differences run deeper. The primary goal of Dutch civilization is a word that they claim is untranslatable, gezelligheid, which roughly means “cosiness”, but extends to many things that you wouldn’t apply “cosy” to, like a gezellig party, a gezellig walk with friends, a gezellig meal. Success is admired, but you are expected not to show off. Working part-time is normal… 80% of women work part time… and losing the extra income is considered completely worthwhile. Religion is common but being irreligious is much more common; not atheist, as much as just not caring at all about religion.
Nobody has credit card debt. The only thing Dutch people buy on credit is their home.
The Dutch have a reputation for being tolerant, but the culture is actually deeply sexist and racism abounds. An anti-Muslim politician just won our recent national election, and right wing parties did well: the fascist wave washing over the West had washed over the Netherlands too.
In 24 years here I’ve never met a single Dutch person with a gun, except for police. Police in Holland are restrained by laws - a policeman in Rotterdam panicked and fired at a car who ran from a traffic stop and is facing charges, even though nobody was injured. People don’t fear cops, although they are still tools of state power.
The high taxes do provide a security net, although unemployment is lower than in the USA, and people don’t stay unemployed for long. A lot of Dutch people suffer burnout, which is recognised as a medical condition, and basically get paid to not work for a while until they recover. We’ve had a pro-business government for over a decade so our health care is privatized, which is why it is one of the most expensive in the world. Everyone gets medical care though.
You have to register with the government to tell them where you live. The upside is that they just mail you a ballot to vote, since they know where you live. There are no voting computers, because activists showed that they can be hacked.
People put out flags when their kids graduate high school and on the king’s birthday. Having a flag any other time would be a bit weird.
Dutch don’t eat out or order food much. Traditional Dutch food is objectively terrible. Luckily modern Dutch food is delicious. Meat alternatives are cheaper than meat, although milk is still cheaper than fake milk.
I could go on, but I’ll leave it there!
Zo al lekker uitgebreid
Nou, eerlijk zeggen vinden veel Nederlanders het heel fijn in Amerika te wonen. Grote huis, grote autos, mooier weer… kan niet beter! Ik vind deze dingen niet belangrijk, maar ik snap waarom mensen uit Holland verhuizen naar de VS.
Ze lijken zelfs gewoon over de grens naar België te stromen, een gemiddelde Hollandse stadswoning is echt belachelijk klein voor die lange Hollanders, en teringduur ;)
I dream of moving and living in the Netherlands. I read that the process can take an excess of 10 years even with a work visa.
Is this true? Is there an easier way?
I mean… if you have marketable skills, you can get a job abroad and get the fuck out. It’s not impossible.
That’s how the majority of legal immigration happens in the U.S.
deleted by creator
deleted by creator
And this time, they may actually follow through.
Fucking lol no they won’t.
Moving abroad is insanely expensive, getting citizenship in another country is insanely difficult, and most people don’t have the skills that other countries would want, nor the resources necessary to make the move. The amount of people who have the resources to do it and the willingness to follow through wouldn’t qualify as so much as a rounding error, let alone enough to get anyone to take notice.
Regardless of what your opinion is on our immigration laws (legal or otherwise), our laws are basically an open-borders policy when compared to every other country on the planet with similar economic prosperity. People act like you can just pack up and move to Canada or something on a whim over the weekend. Not gonna happen.
My Aunt said she’d leave if Trump was elected. Within the year she had sold her working farm and bed and breakfast and moved to Costa Rica with her husband.
Most people can’t afford to do that,or still have kids at home or whatever. And I honestly don’t like her or my uncle that much, but I was so proud of them that they did that. They had the resources, so they just did it.
Most people don’t have that freedom. But those who do should put their money where their mouth is.
I can’t help but notice that all the rich conservative shits all want to move to Costa Rica. It’s like a trend started by Rush Limbaugh. Your aunt moved to the one place where there would be more trumpism, not less.
They seem happy. They have a new bed and breakfast there (like a real one, where they host people, not air bnb) and my mom mentions they post on Facebook all the birds and sunsets and stuff. Shrug
Maybe we can take more of them in Canada instead of from places that commit international assassinations
Yes, America.
Famously not prone to the assassination of political enemies.
Definitely no racial component to your complaint either.
Yeah, totally racist to be upset when other countries carry out assassinations here.
Ah, so you just blame all immigrants for the actions of the government they’re moving away from for non-racial reasons, I see.
That’s why you want more Americans fleeing a fascist takeover, makes sense.
Hey, quick mental exercise, what does an American emigrant look like when you picture them?
Careful with those mental exercises bud, you might give yourselves a nosebleed.
Actually, a lot of the ex-Americans I’ve worked with are a pretty mixed bag, race-wise, and it’s not really surprising that non-white portion might have extra reasons to not be comfortable with the potential government of the future (that said, they might not be too impressed with the potential future government in Canada either).
I’ve also had the pleasure of working and socializing with a good number of intelligent, well-educated immigrants from India etc, but there’s a difference between bringing in educated members of a foreign country and opening the floodgates for McJobs so that corporations can keep on a cheap and easily-controllable workforce.
I’d welcome Americans looking to get away from fascism, but I’m not terribly impressed by bringing in large numbers of people from any country who bring their conflicts and hatreds from the motherland to here.
The interesting assumptions and continued willful ignorance continues, I see.
Some might take this chance to reflect on their thoughts and perhaps address their biases, but that’s apparently off the menu today.
Hey bud, who was being assassinated by Modi’s regime and why?
While I agree with your overall point, if you think the US is “easy” to move to, you’re deluded. It’s far easier to move to the UK, Germany, France, Canada, Australia, and many other countries.
As a software engineer that works for a US company, with 15 years of experience, I can work pretty much wherever I want, except America.
The reason your immigration is so lop-sided is because your visa system is a joke. Many of your visas are taken by chop-shops that exploit foreign labour through low wages and threat of deportation. A sane president would make a more granular system that allows easy movement for people from “welcome” countries, while denying visas to specific sectors/countries that manipulate the system.
We have a housing shortage in Australia, but besides that, we’d love to welcome a lot of you here. Its slightly more sane at least.
i feel like housing shortage is probably the most generous phrase you can use for what is really a real estate crisis at this point.
Also you have weird animals. I’m good, i’ll stay over here.
I’m not leaving. It’s tempting, but at this point, I’m committed to staying and fighting for all of the people who don’t have the privilege to move. And the kids who are too young to vote but deserve to know there are adults on their side who won’t abandon it. I don’t begrudge anyone who moves, especially if it’s a safety issue, but I just can’t.
good luck to the ones leaving, even the rich. climate change and a world order of rewarded greed are just pushing every country into pockets of extremism. the chips have fallen, where we are is where we end.
Heard that over the past like 8 elections.
Same, not going to happen…
Sooo… I speak French. I’m pretty rusty (though I’ve been trying to get it all back this year), but I speak it well enough that it would probably help me get accepted into Canada. I’m a software developer, so it’s not like I’d be a drain on society, I could be very productive there.
I have my passport. My wife is renewing hers. We’re getting passports for the kids this year.
For me, it’s not a question of if we move, should Trump somehow win. It’s when, where, and how.
We won’t stay here.
Both my kids are LGBTQ+. Another Trump presidency would be a direct threat to their lives. So yeah, if he wins, we’re probably going to Canada.
I emigrated to Canada, it’s pretty sweet up here… just be aware that housing is extremely expensive and you will take a significant paycut.
Not having to worry about medical bankruptcy though… fucking priceless.
The problem today is that immigrating to another developed country is usually really difficult unless you or an immediate family member already have citizenship of that country.
You can bypass that requirement if you throw a shitload of money at that country to let you in. And maybe Canada would let you in as a software dev if you settled in Quebec? But from what I’ve read in the past, unlike medical doctors, software developers aren’t usually considered one of the elite professionals that bypass those immigration limitations.
But I wish you the best of luck. And as a software developer myself, I would be interested to hear from you and others on how immigration works for our profession.
One thing in my favor, perhaps… I work for a large multinational company that already has a hefty presence up there. So I could theoretically arrive already employed.
But yeah, if Canada doesn’t work out, we’ll have to figure out something else - heck, maybe France itself. I’ve been there before and loved it.
For a developer is kinda easy to go to the EU. Search for “Blue card”. If you get an offer that pays enough the requirements are less and you get faster roadmaps for permanent settelment.
The biggest problem would be to get the offer from abroad but it is doable if you’re skills are inline with the market.
French people can’t pass the French test to get into Quebec lol.
How different is France French from Canada French? Are we talking British and American English? Or is it more drastic?
From what I understand it’s much different, you can almost certainly get by conversationally but might not academically. I only know this because I work with Quebec a decent amount and it’s anecdotal so I guess vet it properly, apparently the test is extremely hard
I would say it’s more like American English compared to Scottish English.
On paper there is few idioms that are different but in practice the accent difference range from “few interesting intonation there and there” to “barely intelligible for someone who is not used to it”
I would say it’s more like American English compared to Scottish English.
On paper there is few idioms that are different but in practice the accent difference range from “few interesting intonation there and there” to “barely intelligible for someone who is not used to it”
My kid is LGBTQ. Probably a good idea to renew. My wife spoke a european language fluently (but rusty). I could maybe find an infosec job somewhere but I’m in my 50s and monolingual so idk. Not sure what countries would have us. I guess I need to figure it out pretty soon.
Ireland’s pretty nice, English speaking, Americans are well liked and there is high demand for infosec people who get paid well. Not sure what our immigration laws are like for Americans though so you’d need to look into that.
Weather is fairly shit though. It’s very rarely below freezing but it’s also rarely above like 23C.
Housing is also very expensive and you would likely take a pay cut but get more holidays and have better employment protection.
I’m from Oregon, the Ireland of the United States as far as weather is concerned. It’s on my list.
Ah sure you’d be right at home so :) Let’s hope it doesn’t come to it, eh? If it does and you’re seriously considering it feel free to hit me up with any questions.
If you aren’t hired by an Irish company, moving to Ireland is extremely difficult.
Rarely above 23c (73f) sounds delightful, I spent roughly 6 years of my childhood on RAF Feltwell in the UK so I’m already somewhat familiar to the rain
Ah sure you’ll fit right in. :)
you won’t do it.
I already left because of Trump the first time around. I couldn’t be happier. I welcome you to Taiwan if anyone is interested in coming.
I left the first time for Trump… but moved to the UK just in time for Brexit. Should’ve picked Taiwan I guess
Well, Taiwan is a very young democracy (1997). So, we still have a lot of the good thing that early democracies have. We are very foreigner friendly.
Homelessness is rare compared to the USA. While there are homeless people here, the % is much lower.
Universal Health care, social security, publicized medicine, an amazing social program for parents and pensioners.
It’s quite simple to immigrate here. If you make over 65k(USD) a year or in the renewable energy field, you’re already approved.
I’d love to leave. I desperately want to. But I have no marketable skills (too broke to attend college out of high school, am trying now but still have 2 1/2 years to go, so too long), I’m terrifyingly broke, have a weird-ass employment history from years of undiagnosed mental illness and just recently diagnosed ADHD, and I never learned a second language because shitty education and I don’t pick up languages well from those programs that claim to teach you. If I could go, I’ve have gone already, but nowhere worth going wants me and I get it. I know I’m a loser. I’m stuck on this ship while the cool kids are leaving in the life boats. And yes, I vote, but what does it matter?
Imagine your situation, but 10 times worse. Now you see why people try to cross the border.
Amen. You’ll never hear me whining about that. Anyone desperate enough to risk their life to cross the border has to be escaping hell. I used to live in an area with a lot of immigrants and some refugees and my job put me in contact with them frequently and I never saw any reason to have a problem with any of them. Despite what the media says, they were no worse than any other person, and a lot of them were good people who were clearly doing their best.
You’re on the ship with a lot of us buddy. We get through this together.
Sorry to hear of your situation. That kinda sucks.
Vote anyway.There are people trying to convince you that your vote doesn’t matter. if it didn’t matter they wouldn’t bother trying to convince you.
Exactly this. Gonna use this argument more often.
At the very least, I’m gonna get my family out of this hell-hole that is Florida. I’m trying to stay in order to convince as many republicans to split their vote as I can though.
I know a lot of dumb-shit brain washed people that otherwise mean well, but have become oblivious to the hole they’ve found themselves in. So I have a tendency to befriend them and tell them that the only way we’re gonna get any change is if they vote third party. Convincing them to vote Biden is a step too far for most, so I’m just trying to disrupt the cheeto as much as I can locally. And of course my family is voting blue down the whole ticket.
I am at a good point in my life where I could fuck off to Portugal. It is a real consideration.
Down voting because I don’t want anyone to know where I’m headed. Hoping I never have to meet you there, internet friend.
Yeah, fuck the Portuguese people being priced out of their own country. Just enjoy the nice sun and the free healthcare (that we pay for). Just as long as you enjoy it. Keep them coming, who cares about the millions of Portuguese who are being forced to leave the country every day so guys like you can have our houses and enjoy our country.
Or…you could fix your own damn country instead of ruinning ours. Just a thought.
I would…
Most people are full of shit. Where are they going to go? Getting citizenship in another country isn’t easy. “I’ll leave the country if Bush gets elected” was a thing back in the day. Guess how many people actually left? It wasn’t the majority…
“…Americans are planning to flee in droves, and then will realise they don’t have a passport, don’t know any foreign languages, and don’t know how to get around without a car and will ultimately just stay put.”
An example of latent american exceptionalism is that Americans (and articles like this written by them) seem to insinuate that Americans have leave to just enter and live in any country they wish, at any time, and live there for nothing more than booking a flight; that the receiving country will roll out the red carpet upon arrival and wipe their ass with silk, simply because they’re American.
Immigrating to a desirable country is usually a tedious and long process. Their acceptance of you for a long term visa will depend on many aspects of yourself and what you have to offer, not simply because there is a big splayed eagle on the cover of your passport.
I noticed an increase in advertising on CNN around the whole “Mind you, have you considered a house in Italy?”
Come on up, but bring your resumes.
Bring your hammers and start building houses.
I hear Ukraine has a booming housing market.
How would a lifelong cook fair in that regard?
Depends on the country. At least around 2020 I’d heard from my sister in Australia that they were trying to incentivize people in the industry to get work visas. It’s hard to get citizenship there though iirc
PSA if you have one grandparent who was born in Ireland then you may qualify for Irish citizenship. Getting all the needed documentation together and going through the whole process can easily take the better part of a year, so don’t delay.
Even with citizenship, moving abroad is a lot of work and expense. I no longer have any illusions that “cooler heads will prevail” or that “the adults in the room will maintain the status quo”, so having an out, even an extremely expensive one, is very comforting.
