Piracy explicitly is not stealing. Theft requires denying the owner of the ability to use the thing that is stolen. Copyright infringement does not meet this bar, and is not a crime in the vast majority of cases. Commercial copyright infringement is the only offense classed as a crime, which in a nutshell is piracy for profit ie selling pirated material.
Piracy explicitly is not stealing.
Piracy is attacking ships at sea and is usually done in order to rob them.
Piracy is midnight oyster and clam harvesting without a license to break the oyster cartel, making restaurant oysters and clams more available and cheaper to customers.
It is from this grand tradition along the US West Coast that the notion of media piracy rose, and much like the Golden Age of Piracy robbing the Spanish Silver Train, piracy is associated with snatching ill-gotten gains from those who don’t deserve it, sometimes benefiting communities that do. (YMMV).
This is why you get a letter of marque to give you legitimacy. I’ve been letioning my government for one endlessly so I can attack Russian shipping in the balkans.
A letter of marque means you can find safe port at colonies of the issuing state so long as you are attacking its enemies (usually Spanish vessels during the Golden Age).
And privateering is piracy when you have the consent of a government to attack ships belonging to another government
Privateering usually meant the state’s navy issued the ship and demanded a substantial share of the prize leading to creative accounting at sea. It was a deal taken typically by naval officers who might otherwise be tempted to desert when going on the account is offering better prizes and career options. (Desertion to piracy was a big problem in the Queen’s Navee.)
Yes it is
that’s an interesting definition, and one that appeals to me especially as a fan of “harmless” theft (taking something that the owner will never notice is gone, nor be inconvenienced by the lack of)
It’s literally the legal definition. Copyright infringement has never been theft. Media companies have been trying to change the definition of theft, though.
It used to never be a crime, only a civil offense. This means the rightsholder has to sue you, rather than the state prosecute you, but also that the burden of proof is “the balance of probabilities”, ie whichever side tips the scale past 50/50 with their argument, rather than “beyond reasonable doubt” which is more like >99%. However in the last decade many countries have introduced “commercial copyright infringement” as a criminal offense. Off the top of my head, in the US I think the threshold for that is like $1,000 or something.
It’s not about it being “harmless” but the fact that you’re not taking something away from someone. If I steal your laptop and sell it, you no longer have a laptop. If I copy data, you still have your original copy.
This is also why there’s a different crime for “joyriding” instead of just stealing a car. If you steal a car, you might argue that you were just taking it for a drive, and never intended to permanently deprive the owner. In that case it’s easier to convict you for joyriding instead of theft.
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Piracy is best compared to riding a bus without a ticket.
Regardless of the semantics of what we call theft, or whether theft requires denying somebody access to some good, there’s an ethical issue with copying other people’s stuff without permission. If a person breaks into another persons home and makes copies of all of the documents in their home private or otherwise, they’ve at least committed a crime in the form of breaking and entering. But if a person is invited into another persons home, and then without pemission copies all of the documents in the house, that still feels like a wrong act? Like, if you invite me into your house and I start copying down your personal journal, your family photos and other stuff you have lying around, to me that sounds like I’d be doing something wrong by you?
Edit: I do want to point out here that I’m not saying piracy is inherently wrong/bad or never justified.
Corporations are not people, no matter what the Supreme Court says.
Literally nothing in my post claimed that, or even really implied that so I’m not sure what your point with this is?
You are discussing piracy in the context of media and copyright infringement, in which the owner of the pirated material is a corporation and the pirate is an actual person.
By comparing the act of pirating corporate owned digital material to a fictional scenario in which one person is copying another person’s physical possessions very much implies that you see the corporate owners of digital material as people.
EDIT: I understand your point by the way. Is it ethical to pirate things? Maybe or maybe not, but I think the stance of most people here is that pirating stuff that is produced by giant, obscenely wealthy media conglomerates is generally okay.
EDIT: I understand your point by the way. Is it ethical to pirate things? Maybe or maybe not, but I think the stance of most people here is that pirating stuff that is produced by giant, obscenely wealthy media conglomerates is generally okay.
Sure, but breaking and entering is a crime - just like theft. Copying someone’s documents is wrong, but it’s not a crime (not unless you commit a crime with those documents, eg fraudulently take out credit). In that case, it’s a civil offense against the victim - just like copyright infringement.
Crimes are prosecuted by the government. To be convicted of a crime you have to be proven guilty beyond reasonable doubt - in other words, it’s more than 99% likely you did it.
Civil offenses are prosecuted by the victim. The burden of proof is “the balance of probabilities”, ie it’s more than 50% likely you did it. The victim must also show actual damages.
In the US, media companies have perverted the law around copyright infringement, and they manage to get awarded statutory damages well in excess of any actual damages they incur. This is why we had all those ridiculous Napster lawsuits where people were fined hundreds of thousands for downloading a handful of songs. In the rest of the world, they could only be awarded actual damages, and the lawsuits weren’t really worth anything.
Media companies would really like copyright infringement to be theft, and they’ve lobbied hard for that. However they haven’t managed it, not yet anyway. They did manage to establish a crime of commercial copyright infringement, though, where if you pirate a significant amount of material or do it for profit you could be criminally charged.
Sure, but breaking and entering is a crime - just like theft. Copying someone’s documents is wrong, but it’s not a crime (not unless you commit a crime with those documents, eg fraudulently take out credit). In that case, it’s a civil offense against the victim - just like copyright infringement.
My issue is mostly just to do with the moral status of piracy rather than the criminality of it. It feels like in some cases piracy should be justified and in others it shouldn’t be. The criminality of an act is a separate thing. I think I was kind of explaining things poorly with my examples. The distinction between breaking into a home vs not in my example was meant to show the act of copying somebodies personal documents could still be wrong whether or not a crime had taken place under current laws.
Crimes are prosecuted by the government. To be convicted of a crime you have to be proven guilty beyond reasonable doubt - in other words, it’s more than 99% likely you did it.
Civil offenses are prosecuted by the victim. The burden of proof is “the balance of probabilities”, ie it’s more than 50% likely you did it. The victim must also show actual damages.
This is very interesting. Establishing damages over reproduction of ones personal documents seems like it would be almost impossible to establish unless an actual crime had also taken place.
In the US, media companies have perverted the law around copyright infringement, and they manage to get awarded statutory damages well in excess of any actual damages they incur. This is why we had all those ridiculous Napster lawsuits where people were fined hundreds of thousands for downloading a handful of songs. In the rest of the world, they could only be awarded actual damages, and the lawsuits weren’t really worth anything.
Media companies would really like copyright infringement to be theft, and they’ve lobbied hard for that. However they haven’t managed it, not yet anyway. They did manage to establish a crime of commercial copyright infringement, though, where if you pirate a significant amount of material or do it for profit you could be criminally charged.
This train of thought for me seems to lead towards the most satisfying justifications I can think of for why media piracy is probably morally justifiable.
This is very interesting. Establishing damages over reproduction of ones personal documents seems like it would be almost impossible to establish unless an actual crime had also taken place.
That’s pretty much exactly right. However I think there is something to be said along the lines of “What reason would you have for copying the documents, if not to commit an offense?”
This train of thought for me seems to lead towards the most satisfying justifications I can think of for why media piracy is probably morally justifiable.
I feel like the main reason some businesses are completely against piracy is because it helps keep their prices in check. Many businesses take the piss with pricing, however when it gets bad enough people look to alternatives. If there is no alternative, if piracy wasn’t an option, then businesses would get away with ripping off people even more than they currently do.
That’s pretty much exactly right. However I think there is something to be said along the lines of “What reason would you have for copying the documents, if not to commit an offense?”
People do all sorts of nosy invasive things solely for the sake of curiosity and keeping tabs on others I guess? But at a certain point maybe it could just be shoved under some kind of stalking offense?
Kinda sounds like it might be easier to get away with if it was a crime and the burden of proof was higher
“I didn’t know the router Comcast gave me came with an unprotected ‘Guest’ network enabled by default. Someone in one of the other apartments must have been using it to download torrents”
Sounds like a reasonable doubt to me, I’m sure there’d be plenty of other explanations. Plus the work to retrieve everyone’s computers to investigate who actually downloaded it would be prohibitively intensive in anything other than the most extreme cases
In that case it would be less about reasonable doubt that you did it, and more about whether an IP address proves the identity of a user. I would say it doesn’t meet the bar of 50%, however it’s a bit of a grey area that hasn’t been properly tested in court.
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The ethical issue here has nothing to do with damaging any property at all.
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Why would something be unethical if nobody is hurt?
Why are you conflating damaging property with causing harm? It’s at least arguable that an invasion of privacy is harmful, regardless of whether or not property damage occurs.
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Here’s another example. Say a person makes pornographic photos and videos for their significant other, suppose that content gets leaked onto the internet and is uploaded to popular torrent sites without their permission. How is piracy of this sort of content not an invasion of privacy? How is piracy of this sort of content not unethical?
In my example privacy invasion definitely occurs. If you disagree with that, then you should review what I initially said.
If the notion that when people don’t want to share things with you, you have an unqualified right to take those things, and that doing that is just inherently not damaging, then I think your position is unrealistic and incredibly self serving.
Do you have some point to make here besides claiming you’re just never doing anything wrong when it serves your interests?
Very strange comparison, those private copies are specifically private. If you want our comparison to work, I’d be selling these private documents to others… Making them not very private.
My example doesn’t require a “for sale” vs not distinction so I’m not sure why you’re imposing that property on it? People pirate unreleased media, unofficial media, bootleg media and other forms of media that aren’t for sale already, so being for sale is definitely not a necessary property of the cases we’re concerned about when we’re talking about the ethics of piracy.
And even if we restrict ourselves to talking about things that are already for sale: 1. Why does something being for sale suddenly make it not private? Many things for sale are already certainly not public. 2. Why does something being for sale suddenly make taking it without permission magically morally acceptable?
I’m imposing that property on it because for the overwhelming majority of media that is absolutely the case.
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If it’s for sale it’s something you do not mind other people seeing. My documents I do not sell because I don’t want people seeing it. If I were to sell them, clearly I don’t mind people seeing it.
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Making it for sale means you intend to share it, even if conditionally. Also “taking it” doesn’t apply, making a copy isn’t taking anything.
I’m imposing that property on it because for the overwhelming majority of media that is absolutely the case.
I don’t see why this is such a necessary property of media? Arguably there could be more media inside peoples private homes and hard-drives that is not for sale than media that is for sale. On top of that, this kind of thing depends on how we define media, we can take more or less inclusive definitions of this term.
It should also be clear that the kinds of things that I’m talking about in my original post refers to more than just movies, music, games and software (despite me using “media” as a convenient example in my previous post).
If it’s for sale it’s something you do not mind other people seeing. My documents I do not sell because I don’t want people seeing it. If I were to sell them, clearly I don’t mind people seeing it.
I don’t agree. I’d bet a lot of people are willing to sell plenty of ordinarily private things given a high enough price. I don’t think the notion that something is for sale all of a sudden makes that thing magically not private? When you sell something you don’t always make the thing you’re selling available to the public, just to the buyer, and until the sale is complete you’re not typically giving anybody full access to the thing. If it were public/not private the minute you made it for sale, then what is the point in selling it?
Making it for sale means you intend to share it, even if conditionally. Also “taking it” doesn’t apply, making a copy isn’t taking anything.
This isn’t true either. Sometimes people make things for sale with no actual intent of selling. And the intent to share, does not make something all of a sudden not private either. You might share something (perhaps a secret) with a friend, that doesn’t mean the thing you are sharing suddenly becomes not private/public, but that the scope of people you’re will to share this thing privately with has increased by a small amount.
I also disagree with the notion that making a copy just inherently isn’t “taking” things. This is also a matter of definitions, but people actively use the word “taking” to encompass more than just physical things. Phrases like “he took my idea”, “she took my credit card information” and so on are examples of this. Obviously people do consider “taking” to include acts of copying in some cases. If you mean something else by taking, that’s fine, but your personal definition for taking isn’t really relevant when the point I’m making regards a more inclusive notion.
If you’re talking about having family photos pirated, there’s a privacy issue, not a property issue. Everyone talking about media in privacy talks about distributable media. If you want to include other things, that’s on you, but you’ll be yapping in the void as that isn’t what the conversation is about. Not secrets, or private documents.
As for the term of taking, it’s clear what taking means when you try to erroneously conflate piracy with stealing. It doesn’t mean the same as taking a shit either, it has nothing to do with personal definitions, merely the accepted definitions when talking about either piracy, or stealing.
If you’re talking about having family photos pirated, there’s a privacy issue, not a property issue.
It’s pretty clear that I’m talking about more than just family photos. It’s also pretty clear that what I’m saying is that privacy problems are one of possibly many issues with copying data without permission. My actual point here from the start has been that it’s not always ethical to copy other people’s data without permission.
Everyone talking about media in privacy talks about distributable media. If you want to include other things, that’s on you, but you’ll be yapping in the void as that isn’t what the conversation is about. Not secrets, or private documents.
All of the types of media and data I’m talking about are distributable in a colloquial sense. This conversation is about the fact that copying data without permission isn’t always ethical. The data we’re talking about here absolutely includes secrets, private documents and so on.
As for the term of taking, it’s clear what taking means when you try to erroneously conflate piracy with stealing. It doesn’t mean the same as taking a shit either,
I don’t think that’s what’s happening. I’m talking about the ethics of copying data. Perhaps sometimes copying data can be considered theft, but whether or not copying data is theft, has nothing to do with my point. A thing being called theft doesn’t make that thing morally wrong or right. The term theft itself has little to do with the actual issue we’re talking about.
Also, I’ve never actually claimed piracy is theft. I’m also not claiming piracy is morally wrong, or even that theft is inherently morally wrong for that matter (a person can be justified in stealing in some cases).
it has nothing to do with personal definitions, merely the accepted definitions when talking about either piracy, or stealing.
Lets assume you’re right and that literally everybody in the world uses these words the way you do (they don’t). I don’t think arguing “but that word means…” makes a very good argument against the fact that copying data from other people just isn’t always morally right. The fact that you don’t like how I use certain words is just not a good argument against what I’m saying. If you understand what I mean and you disagree with what I’m saying, then why not argue against my point instead of complaining about the fact that you don’t like HOW I use certain words? If you understand what I’m saying and you agree that sometimes it’s wrong to copy other peoples data without permission, then why are we still discussing this?
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Piracy is stealing- but so is capitalism so it’s fine.
It may sound the same but making a copy of something is absolutely not the same as taking something. It’s an important distinction.
You’re taking away the profit they deserve for the work and effort it took them to create the information.
They only deserve what people are willing to pay. It’s like those scammers in foreign countries who push bracelets on you and then demand money for them. If people aren’t willing to pay $600 for your software, you don’t automatically deserve that money just because you said you do.
Push bracelets on you? Who is forcing you to use their software? Please let me know, we can call the police man, that’s fucked up.
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What if I can’t afford it? What if I wouldn’t pay for it even if I could? How are you harmed by me putting it on my wall? You still have 500 photos to sell, and you didn’t lose a customer because I never was one to begin with.
I don’t think I’m entitled to it, I just think it’s a victimless situation. I download shit because I can and because I wouldn’t pay for it anyway. And noone is harmed or effected in any way.
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And if I never intended to buy the product?
So you never intended to buy the product but you intended to use it?
Do you understand they are charging you for the usage, not for your intentions or moral views?
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Exactly. They are twisting reality to justify their shirty actions.
Yes. If I don’t think it’s worth paying the price they’re asking, I will download and play it for free. It if were not available to download for free, I would simply not play it. They lose nothing either way.
If I would have paid for it, but downloaded it for free simply because I could, you’re correct they would be losing profits. But that’s not always the case as you seem to be claiming.
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No, it very much isn’t. Don’t buy into the media companies trying to rewrite the law in their favour. Copyright infringement is not theft.
Property is theft. <Bolshevik chorus swells>
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Someone: Photographs pages of a book in a book store
OP: “Hello Police? Someone is stealing a book!”
Nicholas Cage heavily breathing about all the people simultaneously stealing the declaration of independence
Brb, stealing some documents…
My evil plans are already underway. MUHAHAHAHA
Jokes on you I just downloaded those pictures and if you want them back you must give me 1 million upvotes
Noooo, you can’t just steal MY Declaration of Lemmy Independence that I
stoledownloaded. Hello, Lemmy Police? This fucking Lemming just stole MY document!Blast! My evil plans are foiled!
aside: why can’t lemmy just let me expand the thumbnail without directing me to an external site
To add onto that, on the Jerboa app (not sure about other apps), if I try to click on an image in a comment, it just minimizes the comment. I’d love to be able to click on pictures in comments, as well, and have the thumbnail expand.
This one gets me every time.
Connect does this too. It’s dumb. There’s not even a contextual long press option to open externally or anything. I’m sure it’ll come eventually, but it sucks as it is right now.
I think it’s just imgflip rn cause imgur and catbox links work
Don’t make me tap the sidebar again…
You can steal digital goods, but to do so you have to copy it and erase the original. Otherwise its just copying.
That’s dumb. If you are supposed to pay for something and you just take it instead, you stole it. You can argue word meanings and technicallies all day, but it’s a lot easier to just be real about what we are doing here.
It is copyright violation, not stealing. Yes, it is damaging to the content creator, under current economic and law structure, but it is not stealing. If you burn a house belonging to the content creator, you do not call it stealing, just because it is damaging to them. So, why do you insist on calling it stealing here?
On a side note, one can incision a society where there is no copyright. In that society it would be completely lawful and “non-damaging” to copy things. Copyright is an artificial construct that we choose to have, but it does not mean that we can not rejected (we, as in the whole society, not individual)
One can even argue that the tools needed to avoid IP are already here: crowdfunding models, commissions, and Patreon-esque income, and likely in the near future, universal basic income - you can consider the government/taxes subsidising your ability to create art if you’re starting from zero skills/connections/reach or from scratch with a specific project. With these, why does the author even retain total IP? Their project is funded by the community, so it’d make sense that the creator and the community had a more symbiotic relationship rather than the parasitic one where the author is effectively a digital landlord and dictator with complete control over the project.
Burning down someone’s house is closer to stealing than copyright infringement, though. Afterwards, they don’t have a house anymore, but with copying they’d still have the data.
I prefer to compare it to joyriding. There are separate crimes for theft of a car and for joyriding. If you get caught taking a car, you might argue that you just wanted to go for a drive, and never intended to permanently deprive the owner. In that case, it would be hard to convict you of theft, because theft requires an intent to deprive the owner. Instead, they go for joyriding, which has a different bar.
Even then, though, joyriding is still a crime. Basic copyright infringement is not a crime, it’s a civil offense.
Joyriding depreciates the car. Plus most of the time the gas is not refilled. This is stealing.
Scratching a car also depreciates its value, would you argue that is stealing also?
I wasn’t trying to give a perfect analogy, anyway. Joyriding is a lesser form of theft, with a lower barrier to conviction. Copyright infringement also has a lower barrier to conviction, however it’s completely different to theft (and joyriding) in that it is not a crime.
Stealing requires using something for yourself. Like that gasoline was used or joyriding itself was used. Scratching a car is just vandalizing. What object you are stealing by vandalizing?
Isn’t scratching a car stealing the resale value? The owner has to pay to get it fixed to restore the value. Therefore, vandalism is theft. Quod erat up your demonstrandum :)
Also, assault is theft (of peace of mind), rape is theft (of trust), flaying someone alive is theft (of skin).
If you want to stretch the definition of theft to include any harm, even without depriving someone of their property (i.e. the actual definition), you make the word meaningless. There are already words for other crimes.
You argued that joyriding was theft because it depreciates value.
If you stole a car, you physically took something away from somebody. If you download a car, the original is still there - you’re just making an exact copy for yourself for free. Same if you swiped a candy bar at a gas station - you’re depriving that gas station the use of their property, which is to sell and make money. If you download a candy bar, nothing is taken and the gas station can still sell the original.
So let’s be crystal clear here: what’s happening is not theft, because nothing was taken and the owner is not deprived of the use of their property. Can you argue that you’re getting something for free when you shouldn’t? Yes, and that’s more in line of denying profits rather than actual theft.
We’re talking about the crime of theft and the civil offense of copyright infringement. There is no argument about word meanings or technicalities, just what the law actually says.
Media companies want copyright infringement to be considered theft, and they’ve lobbied the government to try and change the definition in their favour, but the fact is the law distinguishes between them. Copyright infringement is wrong, but it is not a crime and nor is it theft.
If you’re selling apples, and I steal and eat an apple, that’s theft. You no longer have an apple, you had a cost price for that apple and you can’t sell it anymore to make the profit you would have made. Meanwhile, if you sell a game and I copy that game, you still have your original copies. Yes, you haven’t had the money I might have paid for a copy, but it hasn’t cost you anything and you still have an infinite number of copies to sell. If I was never going to buy the game from you anyway, then you wouldn’t have even got that either way.
The US is weird though, in that the courts award statutory damages for copyright infringement. If you fileshare a few songs to a pool of users they might stack up the fines for each user you shared to up to hundreds of thousands of dollars - nevermind that they never would have made that money from selling to all of those people you shared it with. In the rest of the world, they deal with actual damages, and claims for copyright infringement were rarely if ever very large.
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I’m pretty sure criminal copyright has a value threshold of like $1,000, or it has to be done for profit. But I cba looking up the law right now.
It also varies across the world, different countries have different legislation. However at its core, copyright infringement is a civil offense, criminal copyright infringement is an exception (and a relatively new one at that) but not the norm.
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So you’re doing something you personally believe is unethical and your argument is that we should also follow your belief that it is unethical, while we continue to do it? If you genuinely feel it’s unethical, why are you even doing it? Just stop lol
By your own definition, if you TAKE it, you stole it. Nothing is taken.
but it’s a lot easier to just be real about what we are doing here.
That’s always the most frustrating part about these “debates.” So many people make up BS excuses they know are just excuses instead of just owning up to what they - and probably we - are doing. Just take responsibility for your actions. Don’t insult my intelligence with stuff we both know is nonsense.
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“It’s for game/movie/TV preservation!” - someone who has no archival experience or affiliation with a group that makes use of this media which also happens to only consist of things the individual enjoys.
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“The record companies are screwing artists over!” - someone who has put no effort into finding other ways to support the artist and pirates from artists who have good relationships with their labels or even self-publish.
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“I didn’t take anything from the person!” - someone who wouldn’t want their writing/art/etc. taken and shared without their permission.
It’s just not stealing, you guys can whine all you want and twist the meaning of stealing to a fifth graders understanding but it doesn’t change the fact that it is not stealing. Is it wrong or right? That’s another debate that is worth having,but weather or not it’s “stealing” has an obvious answer which is no. There is no debate
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What’s ridiculous about it? Morals are subjective.
If I copy a movie that came out 80 years ago and everyone involved with it is now dead, who am I supposedly ‘stealing’ from or depriving of anything? Some faceless corporation who claims ownership over someone else’s work? How about cases where a movie or show isn’t available to buy in your area? Who’s getting deprived of anything there?
You can keep your morals to yourself where they belong.
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Media Piracy is copyright infringement, which is totally not stealing.
The US Supreme Court taking content out of the public domain so that it can be reserved for private use isn’t stealing either, but it causes more harm than piracy.
Embedding image directly for mobile users:
Is this the same way for memes in comments?
I don’t know man. Where I live the law says it’s not stealing. It says: legal to share, illegal to share for profit. On other words: legal to share, illegal to sell.
And where would that be?
Well…Where he lives… /shrug
EU.
Talk about blowing smoke up your own ass.
I honestly don’t care about the legality. Plus I come from a country where we have way bigger issues to deal with than piracy.
All I care about is coming up with ways to make sure my friends watch some of the stuff I recommend to them. Best way is still going “hey, check out this cool new show. Yes it’s on saltyflix”
that is exactly where i am at as well, battling with absurdly high inflation is already hard enough i can’t pay for bajillion different streaming services or non indie games
I’m living in one of those countries. I still use a vpn, but I don’t anyone here does besides me.
But the way I look at it is, the people so make these things are also so rich out at least have higher incomes than I do by a significant amount.
Why are you asking me for money? Don’t you have enough?
I feel so stupid: what’s saltyflix lol
Haha, it’s just a play on my user name and netflix
Or you could just not give a flying fuck about the moral and ethical aspects and go on with your life.
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Live the unexamined life? But then who will pay attention to me?
It’s a lot earlier when you realize that everyone else is going to treat this world like a smash and grab regardless of what you do. These companies
includedespecially.deleted by creator
Which is why I think it is probably more immoral to play by their rules. But in the end I pirate cause I’m poor.
I live on a small island and the closest cinema or shop where I could buy anything is 3 hours away.
Piracy is more comfortable for me.
then why don’t you subscribe to streaming services?
Well, my friend: I don’t like to be locked out of other regions.
small island
3 hours away
Hmmmmmmmmmmmm
That cinema would probably be off that small island, on some mainland, thus the 3 hours of travel needed.
Trying to locate me? 😁
If no one loses anything they never had in the first place it is not stealing
